*Dragon, wyrmtongue
-8 morannon orc, 1 item each
-2 warg rider, 1 shield each
-2 giant spider

*Orc Taskmaster
-8 morannon orc, 1 item each
-2 warg rider, 1 shield each
-2 giant spider

*Orc Shaman
-8 morannon orc, 1 item each
-2 warg rider, 1 shield each
-2 giant spider

Overall: 800 points, 6 might, 39 units.
Pros: Nicely "symmetrical". All army S4+. Pure Mordor. A lot of beasts for price.
Cons: Enemy with a lot of magic can be troublesome. For example Dragon can be drained courage = flee from battle early. Hard to chase enemy archers. Dwarves are still op.

Nice list. I would change the wyrmtongue though. You will need the willpower to pass courage tests. Maybe change it with fly or though hide.
And if you still want some more magic on the table consider swapping the taskmaster with a budgetwraith. The do a lot for the points they cost.

_________________
Backlog:
21/01/2015: still 319 Models to paint or 27,01%
30/12/2016: Somehow the backlog has risen up to 900+ models :/

Ok i have a question. Which one would be smarter:

1. Replace wyrmtongue with wings to get more mobility and get more benefit from free heroic moves/fights from taskmaster.
2. Drop wyrmtongue, and replace taskmaster and 1 warg rider with shadowlord. Nice bonus against archering enemies and mages too.
3. Keep the list same?

If it's me, I'd drop Wyrmtongue, all the spiders and warg riders and use the available points to add in Shagrat War Leader, give him 12 Morannons, and add in 2 more Morannons into the other 3 war bands

Dragon
10 Morannons

Shagrat War Leader
12 Morannons

Taskmaster
12 Morannons

Shaman
10 Morannons

I think that comes out to 800 points and I think it's a stronger and deeper list all the way around. But that's only if you have all those models !

_________________
T'was in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair..
But Gollum, and the evil one crept up and slipped away with her..

That morannon spam is insane. Though i calculated and it seems there is 3 more morannons than should.

How would your list excel against this one?:

*Dragon
-8 morannon orc, 1 item each
-1 warg rider, shield and throwing spear
-2 giant spider

*Dwimmerlake
-8 morannon orc, 1 item each
-2 warg rider, shield each
-2 giant spider

*Orc Shaman
-8 morannon orc, 1 item each
-2 warg rider, shield and throwing spear each
-2 giant spider

Overall: 800 points, 38 units, 4 might. Enemy mage will cry for mom. Enemy melee will fall against op morannons and strong monsters... Gil-galad the most op cheesy hero in lotr will be transfixed hard. Enemy nazgul just lost 50% of their life essence...

Con: Enemy archers will rekt this list hard.

I've been thinking hard about this, and I don't have a good answer for you. I'll tell you how I would build the list for me, then we can try to modify it to suit your preferences.

First, I like a War Horn with my Dragon, which means either a Black Numenorean or a Morgul Knight. That jump to C5 is massive.

Next, if I'm taking a Dragon, I need it to have something. The standard kit for a combat Dragon is Fly and Tough Hide, I understand wanting to save a few points and not taking two upgrades, but I at least need it to fly.

After that, at this points level, we have to expect to face multiple spellcasters, so you have a good idea with the Dwimmerlaik, I would like to offer an alternate option in the Undying: not as good at countering multiple spellcasters, but has his own Might, which is useful for...

...A Fell Beast! What's better than one scary flying monster? Two! It means your Dragon isn't the only threat you have on the board.

Putting all that together, I would go with:

Dragon - Fly
6 Black Numenoreans - 1 with War Horn
6 Orc Spearmen

The Undying - Fell Beast
10 Morannon Orcs - 5 with Shields, 5 with Spears

Taskmaster
10 Morannon Orcs - 5 with Shields, 5 with Spears

800 points, 35 models, 7 Might.

Now, I'll try to tailor those ideas to you. I know you like the Spiders and the Wargs, I personally can't fit everything that I want to fit into one list, but here's my starting point:

Dragon - Fly
5 Black Numenoreans - 1 with War Horn
5 Orc Spearmen

Ringwraith - 1/7/1
5 Morannon Orcs - Shields
5 Morannon Orcs - Spears

Ringwraith 1/7/1
5 Morannon Orcs - Shields
5 Morannon Orcs - Spears

Spider Queen

34 models, 6 Might, has one Spider

I did at first try the Dwimmerlaik and a Spider Queen and a bunch of Giant Spiders, but it left the army with something like 25 models, so this is my offer.

*Dragon + fly
*Undying + fellbeast
*Taskmaster
-6 black numenoreans + warhorn
-6 orc warrior (spears)
-20 morannon orcs

versus

*Dragon
*Dwimmerlake
*Orc Shaman
-24 morannon orc
-5 warg rider
-6 giant spider


So, let's imagine that these two armies face each others! (sorry for a long speculation, i just love to write this stuff xD).

Your fellbeast is surely a strong addition right now, because my army has no bows. Against bows fellbeasts can fall fast, but against a slow melee army fellbeasts are as good as they get. So, you could greatly benefit from this.

Black numenoreans are also part of the "op units of mordor". On the other hand, a wise enemy simply goes around these black numenoreans in this scenario instead of trying to even focus on them. They have a warhorn... wutever, it is just 1 courage, it is not worth wasting fighting turns. Surely, if i want to kill these, shaman's fury would give courage to fight, but most likely i just go around and let your 80 points rot protecting their "valuable warhorn", and i doupt you would want to risc your warhorn, but who knows.

My army has a shaman to boost morannons. So they might in fact be able to beat your army due to this fury. Because your army neither has anything ranged, i might be able to protect my shaman (hope so). If i happen to break your army, then my spiders and wargs are ready to hunt you down fast, and find possible objectives.

In grasping objectives, you have the big heroes with mobility, so if you would want to take a distant objective, you certainly could do it. But on the other hand, if you move them to some distant objectives, your army without these big heroes would certainly loose in a blink of eye. My warg riders and spiders are not capable to fight off your big heroes, but again, i could send just a couple or a few wargriders to distant objectives, while your mobility migh not be enough to do it without sacrofizing leadership (you have no bows or cavalry to stop me outside leaders).

About heroes otherwise... Undying would still need to save a bit of his will points, even though he can regenerate them, because the dwimmerlake causes pain to even him... There is even a chance to loose 2 will in a simple melee combat.

Both ringwraiths could try to "drain courage" from enemy dragon, making them flee fast. Dwimmer makes you lose more will during that, but you reain something back when i do spells, so you in fact will counter me in this matter. If you was a shadowlord or any other ringwraith, i could spam sap will and he would spend a lot of extra will points to resist (if i am lucky) so i might be able to weaken a shadowlord or similar ringwraith enough to even banish him. But Dwimmerlake cannot do the same against the undying...

If both dragons go into same melee, the wings are somewhat less valuable. Surely, you can that way put your dragon behind my lane and target something more valuable, let's say spiders. It would be a very bad loss for me. But it would be a great risc for you, so most likely wings are not that valuable in this specific situation.

Dwimmerlake can also try to compell the enemy dragon so he will go to preferred position (just like undying can try to compell my dragon, but luckily my dragon is much slower and less capable to run in the mids of enemy alone).

The taskmaster might be able to give you free heroic movements, so you could counter dwimmerlake with him. Also, your army has a few more might + taskmaster, so if you are a good player (i assume so), you could probably use it to your advantage. I am a noob player so I prefer using the dwimmerlake to counter pro enemies so i can play unskilledly and win. ^^

Overall: The match would certainly be interesting. Your army has an edge, and you would win like 4/5(?), but it wouldn't still be too easy. And of course, your army is made knowing what my army contains, so it somewhat counters mine. So, when we imagine a random enemy, he might have something to counter you for example (undying does not exactly protect the dragon against enemy mages or bows, also his fellbeast might fall fast against bows.)

And yeah, about the second army you suggested:

*Dragon + fly
*Spiderqueen
*2 budget ringwraith
-20 morannon orcs
-5 orc
-5 black numenorean

Blabla: This spiderqueen is a cute hero. :3 But also a bit overprices... :< Very low defence so it dies easily. Honestly, I wish it was as cheap as old good times... Or that it could lead forces. Much funnier choice than "shagrat war leader" etc to lead units...

2 budget wraiths can surely control some magical events. They lack the special ability such as countering enemy mage as hard as dwimmer, but on the other hand, they can together ensure to transfix/sap will/wutever most enemies. It is in a way tempting idea.

There black numenoreans... Stat-wise, they are awesome... Thematically they are very questionable - only a few rare cases were assumed to exist such as the mouth of sauron... The courage this warhorn will give... Surely it is important for dragon, but it also takes a lot points from army to assuming that in the late game dragon suffers too much wounds and flees. I don't know if that is smart, perhaps, but it feels like playing for anticipated defeat... Well, surely it is also very good, because ow dragon has courage to charge the terrifying enemies...

Conclusion: So, ok, let's stil lgo for the warhorn. But let's not make it too emphasized, ok?

*Dragon
*Dwimmerlake
*Orc Shaman
-5 giant spider
-5 warg rider
-20 morannon orc
-4 black numenorean+warhorn

Overall: 801 points, 37 unit, 4 might. Would this army list be better than the one mentioned earlier?

*Dragon
*Dwimmerlake
*Orc Shaman
-5 giant spider
-5 warg rider
-20 morannon orc
-4 black numenorean+warhorn

Or replace shaman and dwimmer with 2 budget wraith? And then add the dragon 1 ability?

Before I answer that, I need to emphasize that whatever advice I or anyone else could give you is based on our experiences and preferences, if I suggest something that doesn't work for you, then that's a bad suggestion.

Now, the reason I put in two big monsters is because, at 800 points, you'll be facing a lot of magic. If I have two monsters and a spellcaster (or two) in the army, I have a better chance of being able to use one of the monsters this turn. Given that one of said monsters is an expensive Dragon, it's very likely that I'm outnumbered and need the monsters to pull their weight in combat.

I understand your logic in wanting the Spiders and the Wargs, they do more damage than Orcs. Plus, they're just more fun to use. The thing is, if your only big threat is a Dragon, there's a very good chance that your opponent has enough magic in the army to stop it. If that's the case, then your army is going to use the Dragon as a distraction and soak up all the magic and the shooting, while your Orcs/Spiders/Wargs do all the work. That's fine too.

The reason I suggested a Taskmaster is so the Dragon can do more Heroic Combats, but a Shaman is always a good choice. I suggested two Budget Wraiths just so you have something extra to counter multiple spellcasters (or so you aren't as dependent on the Dragon to kill heroes).


Like I always say in your posts, see what works best for your playing style and go with that. I even face myself sometimes just to see if certain combos don't work. Nothing works quite like match practice, I've been playing this game for 13 years and I still often get things wrong with my list builds.

Well, i would like to talk this thing in theory thoroughly because i will need to buy a few new units, such as a/the ringwraith, these numenoreans, also these giant spiders (but i will get the spiders anyways because they are awesome miniatures)...

So, i would gladly solve whether Dwimmerlake is better or 2 budget wraith. Dwimmerlake should have an ability to actually counter enemy mages. While i cannot see that the budget wraiths would do the same (sap will galadriel? idk) - it seems you chose them only to stop the enemy fighters? So, with 2 budget wraith, the dragon would apparently become a bait?

If so, then i do not understand 1 thing. Why did you put an upgrade to dragon, if he is just a bait?

Well, the Dwimmerlaik can slow down multiple wizards per turn, but he can still only cast one spell. Two Budget Wraiths can cast two spells per turn. That's all there is to it. Whether you're up against multiple spellcasters (Sap Will is great) or scary combat heroes that you don't necessarily want to send the Dragon against, I just like the flexibility of two spells per turn. There's no obvious "Option A works better" answer here: the Dwimmerlaik is a good choice, multiple Budget Wraiths are a good choice, going with zero magic and taking all the biggest combat heroes you can could be a good choice, it's all about what you do with the list.

As for the Dragon becoming bait, I mean if you have no other combat threats, the Dragon is definitely bait. That's why I gave you a Fell Beast in the first list then a Spider Queen in the second, so that the Dragon isn't your only big threat. Fly is so you can keep him threatening and also get him out of bad situations. If you're going with just the Dragon as a big hero, then you're right, you're better off not giving him upgrades.

Well, i have lately considered the mobility... I can see many problems arousing to a wingless dragon. Enemy could use cheap units to block it's way and so on. So, is there a realistic chance that a wingless dragon could gain it's price back in the battle, killing assumably powerful heroes, monsters, maybe even elite troops?

Also, i would adore to have the "breathefire" ability if enemy would have things like troll chieftain, ents, balrog, cavedrake, etc. It would make killing them so easy?

I no longer take Dwimmerlaik: magic users on horse or beast simply stay just out of his range to attack.

Hmm ok... I kind of understand your statement about dwimmerlake not being good... But on the other hand... He will be still, capable to attack directly to enemy mage with sap will. If enemy is a ringwraith (and not undying), the enemy will most likely loose in the long run. Also Dwimmerlake can position himself bravely against enemy mages, because he knows he will beat them! And that is how he can perhaps "claim" strategically important area. Using this fear might be a key to win. Dwimmer and Dragon will probably both need more mobility to work as intended...

So, we want dragon + wings, dwimmerlake + horse, and we want to have at least 5 giant spider and 5 warg rider... So we have now 595 points... Then we will fill the rest of these 2 warbands (so far just 2) with morannons -> 707 points... Then add a shaman and more morannons, maybe a few throwing spear until 800 points:

Ok now we have:

*Dragon, wings
-1 giant spider
-1 warg rider, shield + throwing spear
- 6 morannon orc, 1 item

*Dwimmerlake, horse
-2 giant spider
-2 warg rider, shield + throwing spear
-7 morannon orc, 1 item

*Shaman
-2 giant spider
-2 warg rider
-6 morannon orc, 1 item

Overall: 800 points, 32 units, 4 might... This ain't actually that bad, because the black numenoreans would probably been hiding anywas (protecting valuable horn)...

So, then there is another approach... Let's assume that Dwimmerlake is truly doomed... (And that we won't simply replace it with shadowlord)... In that case... We gotta do something... but what? Then we will go for 2 budget wraith... A lot magical control for a cheap price... Ok, this gives an opportunity... To replace the super pricy dragon with cave drake (I own a dragon model, i assume it could be a drake too...).

*Cave drake

*Ringwraith 2-7-1
-8 morannon orc, 1 item
-2 giant spider
-2 warg rider, 1 item

*Ringwraith 2-7-1
-8 morannon orc, 1 item
-2 giant spider
-2 warg rider, 1 item

*Shagrat, war leader
-8 morannon orc, 1 item
-1 giant spider
-2 warg rider, 1 item

Overall: 800 points, 39 units, 8 might...

If anything, that's all the more reason to take the Dwimmerlaik! Magic users actively move to stay out of his range, your opponents have to work around his threat range. That's a 24" hero-free bubble that you're creating. All you have to do is position him right and you're pushing your opponents away from your valuable targets. Basically what Salattu said.

Ok sorry all for sleepless night... So, i thought about the lists and came to a resolt that this shagrat etc list... It just feels wrong to drop the dragon - the centrum of army - into pescy drake... So, i have a straightforward question:

Is it better to have warhorn and 5 more infrantry unit, or wings on dragon and horse on dwimmerlake?

*Dragon, wings, breathe fire
-4 warg rider, shield
-7 orc warrior
*Dwimmerlake, horse
-4 black numenorean, warhorn
-8 orc warrior
*Orc Shaman
-8 orc warrior
-3 morannon orc

Overall: 800 points, 37 units, 4 might

So, now you probably wonder why normal orcs... Answer: They are actually pretty good with fury, having 1/3 chance to "have a succesful fate point"... So, the more mass with fury, the more useful even these cheaps orcs are...

Also, i decided that i want a REAL DRAGON. It means that no more cowardly and all this. 2 upgrades. Fire i chose becuase i took the courage boost from war horn. So, now if enemy happens to have somethin like... smaug, balrog, troll chieftain, wutever, i will be happy to burn him... with aid of dwimmerlake.

COMMENTS PLEASE!!!!

If Dwimmie is trapped behind his own lines (mounted or not, to avoid exposure to melee attack), then a mounted enemy Sorcerer or Nazgul moves just outside his 12" range to attack/blast even the hero standing next to him. Yes, Dwimmie can then attack back--like any Nazgul--but you pay those points for his Will/Might drain, which is too easily circumvented.

My solution: put Dwimmie on a Fell Beast. But with no Might, I rarely dared to use him to attack anything. Thus: 170 point drain to get a nifty Special Rule to work 50% of the time...

Nice to nullify those enemy Heroes on the shield line...true.

Ultimately, not worth it for me--however, a steady champion friend swears by Dwimmie (not mounted!)--and he is a better player than I am.