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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:46 am 
Elven Warrior
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Sacrilege, on some points I agree with you. I definitely agree that time, money, patience, and skill are all huge factors in determining if someone will stick with tabletop wargaming.

I mentioned at the end of my post that tabletop wargaming does offer something different than video gaming. I'm not dismissing the depth of the wargaming hobby. I am saying that, from a gaming standpoint, more and more people will choose to take the video game over the tabletop wargame as time goes on--especially since video games are becoming increasingly better at simulating war than wargames themselves.

Choosing video games over miniatures might not even be a conscious decision--that's something I want to stress. A military historian who finds himself put-off by DBA might go home and pop in Total War without making any active comparisons or choices between the two. A few decades ago, he probably would have stuck with DBA, since it was his only realistic chance at simulating historical warfare.

Wargaming is primarily about the simulation of a battle. Some games choose to take the simulation more seriously than others, but all these combat modifiers, special rules, dice rolls, and so on are included in all these games to try and make the combat more realistic. All of this can be done more effectively and enjoyably by a computer simulation.

There's definitely something really fun and special about painting, collecting, and displaying models, creating terrain, getting into fluff, and hanging out with other gamers--but all of these aspects of the wargaming hobby can also be found in other hobbies, like scale model painting, model railroads, trading card gaming, roleplaying, sports, etc. What wargaming primarily brings to the table is, well, wargaming. But Fire Emblem, Total War, and X-COM have tabletop games outclassed in that area.

This is what separates Monopoly and Clue from Hail Caesar and friends. Total War can simulate Hail Caesar ten times better than actual Hail Caesar. On the other hand, nothing is really being brought to the table by a digital version of Monopoly, because there's no real simulation: everything is already very straightforward.

That being said, I suspect as we become more addicted to technology, many non-niche board games will start becoming less popular too. I've had family nights where we just played Words With Friends instead of getting out the Scrabble board.

As for "art," one of my friends said something about painting miniatures that really bothered me at the time: more or less, painting pre-sculpted miniatures is essentially a glorified paint-by-numbers. I now sort of agree with her. All of the models have been pre-sculpted and cast, and almost all of them have to do with war, fantasy, science-fiction, and pin-up women. Very few people besides us take miniatures seriously as a form of art.

Lastly, yes--Warcraft is a Warhammer clone. GW was working with Blizzard to produce a Warhammer RTS, but then decided to drop the project. Blizzard took the scraps and made Warcraft. Not jumping onto that video game bandwagon was one of the worst mistakes GW ever made.

What I'm saying is, understandably, controversial for a tabletop wargaming site. I'm just trying to bring something new to the table other than "GW is horrible" :)
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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:33 am 
Elven Warrior
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Coeningus posted that photo as evidence that others plastic kits are better than GW's. I disagree, and think the photos speak for themselves.

Frankly, it doesn't really matter whether it's the sculpting, the technical production, or the complexity of the kit. That's like saying Einstein is only more intelligent than most of us because he had an IQ of 158. Better is better. You can't qualify it by discounting the important variables.

Of course there's a great difference in style. But the GW plastics are still, technically speaking, more advanced. They are capable nowadays of a form of three dimentionality which the perry sculpts (and older GW kits) lack.

The perry sculpts are stiff precisely /because/ of the limitations of their production, and not because they can't sculpt dynamic poses. They sculpted the mirkwood guard after all. The stiff poses are due to production limitations. They're actually very nice models though, just not quite up there with the sorts of things GW, Wyrd Miniatures, and plastics producers in non-wargaming industries are capable of.

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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:42 am 
Loremaster
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:lol: Jamros, your notion of changing the "GW is horrible" theme in this thread is by stating that "an ideal GW in a perfect world would get eventually killed by the video game industry"!?! HAHAhaha : :lol: That's like going from bad to worse. :rofl:

But in all seriousness, I do appreciate your long reply. The greatest thing about RTS games over table top is that it's: cheap, you play right away, you can play against the CPU instead of scheduling an appointment with a friend. And as technology advances, sure games get better, but the best games are judged by their gameplay and complete package, not just a pretty picture.

Wargaming brings more than just wargaming to the table, it brings friends and beer, and beer is good. I guess the same can be true for video games when having a game night, but mostly social interaction is online now. Where you're on your headset screaming at your team while some 13 year old punk is shooting you up and you're wondering where your back up is and then you find out that they're camping far behind , then you tell them to get up off their lazy [word deleted] and play, and then they make racist and momma jokes at you, and you tell them to [word deleted] off those mother [word deleted] good for nothing dip [word deleted] and [word deleted] you too you 13 year old kid who thinks he's all that, probably fat with pimples [word deleted] [word deleted] [word deleted] hangs on daddy's porch... AAAAAAaaagahh...

... where was I.. oh yes nothing replaces the feeling of having a good old table top game with warm friends around. :)

As far as paint-by-numbers. Yes that does become a chore, it has crossed my mind that it closely relates to a colouring book in a way, especially if you're not making your own paint scheme. But friends and people at work always seemed to be impressed by the models I've shown them, and then you see a finished complete army after all that mechanical industrial line painting, it does bring a certain satisfaction up that seems more real than prestige level three on CoD.

Hmm... headed way off topic here, sure I've seen that Tom Kirby online a few times on CoD, sure shot that no good son of [word deleted] [word deleted] [word deleted] [word to yo momma] [word deleted] power drill [word deleted] One Direction [word deleted] up. Every time I play CoD all I see is Kirby...

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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:42 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Sacrilege, I'm not saying Call of Duty is a competitor to Warhammer. Comparing shooters to a tabletop wargame really is apples and oranges, like you said.

But I think comparing Warhammer to the upcoming Warhammer Total War is very realistic.

I also am not arguing that wargaming is just about wargaming. It's a hobby with a lot of depth--I've mentioned that before. I am arguing about things from a gaming perspective--that, gameplay-wise, the average person would choose, consciously or subconsciously, to simulate war via a more affordable, quicker computer than through dice, expensive models, rulers, rules, etc. The average person also doesn't really care what the entirety of wargaming entails, and this will only increase as we become more dependent on technology. The elements of wargaming that distinguish it as a hobby instead of just a game can be found in other hobbies as well.

We definitely are moving off-topic, and it seems to be just me and you. I've sent a bit more in a PM. I do wonder if the rejected market research would have revealed anything about video games as competition.
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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm 
Elven Warrior
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@Jamros your comment is really and industry wide comment and isn't about why GW had a huge loss in sales relative to other wargaming companies. That is due to board decisions. It is however a very good explanation of why wargaming has a popularity ceiling.
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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:10 pm 
Loremaster
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^And a good explanation on why kids are getting obese and anti-social these days and not hitting the parks.

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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:04 am 
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For me it's a no brainer as to why they charge more for their miniatures. Quite simply they are the only games producer with a global network of stores to fund. Stores cost money to run. There's rent to pay, electricity, upkeep and salaried staff. You can go into these stores, look at the miniatures first hand, speak with a human being about hobby advice, learn a new game, join a beginners club, go to vets club, play in campaigns and interact with other like minded individuals. When last I checked there wasn't a Wyrd store, Mantic store, or Privateer press store on my high street where I can go in and learn their game. So yes obviously their prices are going to be cheaper. They have way less overheads.
There was a time when I couldn't care less if every GW store closed down and the ranges went entirely mail order. But this year I've found a new appreciation for them as my son found enthusiasm and passion for gaming entirely from the staff at my local GW making it fun for him. Now like any other kid he happily wastes hours in front of the TV playing Xbox, but that controller gets eagerly shelved now if I suggest we have a game of 40k or Hobbit at home or venture into town to go in the store. He would join in every single Event running at our GW if I would let him. For that, I thank GW, and happily pay more for their miniatures.

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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:29 am 
Kinsman
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ukfreddybear wrote:
For me it's a no brainer as to why they charge more for their miniatures. Quite simply they are the only games producer with a global network of stores to fund. Stores cost money to run. There's rent to pay, electricity, upkeep and salaried staff. You can go into these stores, look at the miniatures first hand,


A store should make you money, not cost it.

They had 4 stores within 30 minutes travel time from my house 10 years ago, now there is one.

Those stores had more staff 10 years ago.

Those stores actually carried most of the 3 main lines to buy and browse 10 years ago instead of the large amount of direct only products now

Their prices were less than half what they charge now - and yet they were still making greater profits.


Ditto the quality of White dwarf.

Bits Service.

Website articles.

Customer Service.

Free painting guides.


If GW still offered the same premium service they offered 10 years ago then I would agree they would be justified in asking the premium dollar they are charging today.
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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:53 am 
Elven Warrior
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ukfreddybear wrote:
if I suggest we have a game of 40k or Hobbit at home or venture into town to go in the store. He would join in every single Event running at our GW if I would let him. For that, I thank GW, and happily pay more for their miniatures.


And that is EXACTLY the demographic they are going after. Dad's money. However, they're going after it to the detriment of all the other potential demographics. Perhaps it worked before, but their figures would suggest it's not working now.

Adult gamers were too big a cash cow to sacrifice, in my opinion, and the shop network could be supported as it once was, by a higher volume of business.

I don't even mind higher prices, it's the constant gouging and reduction of quality to squeeze the last penny that gives a consumer a bitter aftertaste.

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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:39 pm 
Loremaster
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Let's see what miniwargaming thinks:


The customer decline, and higher prices = less gamers; that is nothing new. Any right minded wargaming strategy player didn't need a crystal ball to predict that one years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:55 pm 
Loremaster
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I am frankly appalled that he has taken so much out of the kitty to pay himself, particularly after doing so much long term damage!
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 Post subject: Re: GW change of CEO
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:11 pm 
Kinsman
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It's really no wonder that the company is not doing very well with a CEO who hires people upon liveability and on a letter rather than their CV.

I wonder if they continue in this decline if someone will buy them up? Then I'm sure we would see some large changes. Think of hasboro buying games workshop.. it's quite thrilling.
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