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 Post subject: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Hello all!

As you all know, my SBG adventure isn't long in the tooth. I chose my first forces back in December/January based on the models I liked and as a result, have nearly completed a 500pt Grey Company list and an all mounted 500pt Rohan list!

And so far, in gaming with them, am learning lots and building up a nice little record (if you've read the battle reports!) But I'm not overly competative and am quite conscious, especially after my last game, that the tactics I'm having to use to attempt to win the game, with the troops at hand, are incredibly skirmishy/shooting based... which has made the games quite long!

I am lucky that the one ringers who have since met up and started gaming with together (we're forming a nice little local group!) have been great teachers and incredibly patient and even after our mammoth 8 hour, 5am finish on Thursday night/Friday morning were more than supportive and still enthusiastic!

But I am conscious that in the future, this could be quite weary for them? Is this the case and is there some consensus or etiquette regarding this? I wouldn't want to kill enthusiasm!

I know it's a strategy battle game and all strategies should have victory as the objective, but could this be a problem?

Forum opinions appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:42 am 
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Personally I don't mind such tactics, if anything it only motivates me to win even more, in a fun and competitive way. Personally if it works for you I'm of the mindset that they need to come up with a counter to it, that's the fun of battling the same people repeatedly

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:44 am 
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Your games will go faster once you have all the little nuances down. As long as everyone is having fun that's the main thing, though in all honesty when I was reading your first battle report I thought your opponent was being pretty generous...of course, maybe next time he'll bring some trackers, or a drummer, or some other counter-measure :)

One thing to consider is that not every scenario will lend itself to skirmishy tactics. Another is that armies like Harad will likely make pincushions out of a skirmishy Rohan.
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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:59 pm 
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indeed, you had the perfect scenario, and the perfect opponents (slow moving dwarves and hobbits). You will not be able to deploy the same tactics to the same degree in other games. I have no problem with what you did as described in your battle reports. It's up to your opponents to come up with a counter in their army-building if they don't want you to continue.
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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:48 pm 
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The other thing to remember is that all tournament games of 1000pts have a maximum limit of 2.5 hours. Once that time is up, that's it. Game over. And to be fair, 2.5 hours is very generous. My games never last more than 2 hours tops if it is a close encounter.

Had I been playing in the mammoth game, I probably would have retreated away and hid in some terrain etc and stayed there. I would have had no desire to become target practice for the horse-lords.

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:03 pm 
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My primary Good force (Wood Elves) is generally "squishy/shooty" as well, but I never play it as a shooting army for an entire scenario. Only to soften the enemy up a little so numbers are more favorable before I charge. I'm currently working on a Rohan force that will be mostly mounted and similar. Shoot for a while but charge when appropriate.

I often see newer players have an over-protective tendency toward their forces. None of your models will care personally if they are "killed" in the course of the game, and I can all but promise they will come out and fight for you just as hard next game. So don't try to protect them like real people. If you are playing a shoot heavy force you shouldn't just hide behind it for the whole game but rather use the ranged fire to either channel your opponent, break him up, thin the numbers or deny an objective. But get into melee with the force in a reasonable manner. Especially with Cavalry where you're loosing so much potential power. This works both ways. Opponents see a hail of arrows (even weak Str2) and try to hide their forces. As noted above some decent armor and a few options to move the troops faster to close the distance and take on the shooters (at least those on foot). It really does not take much. Anything D4 and above is pretty survivable vs. Str2 and Str3 bows alike, with D5 being even better. And there are a lot of D5 options in the game now. Charge in with a large enough group and you WILL get some through to your opponent.

Winning a game with "hide and shoot" is not nearly as fun and memorable as a dramatic, heroic charge followed by several turns of intense melee...even if you don't necessarily win. Your shooters are there to help ensure that when you make that charge it's into a reasonably softened target, not to wipe out the entire enemy force.

This doesn't even touch on scenario objectives which sometimes limit the effectiveness of shooty armies.


The goal of any game is to have fun while trying to win, but if you or your standard opponents are getting bored then you're not accomplishing the purpose of playing the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Thank you all for your insights!

I'm glad there is a slight consensus that is down to opponents to find ways of countering. I agree with whafrog that the games will be slicker once I'm a bit more experienced.

Like you say, there will be times where the scenario, circumstances or opponents won't suit and my luck will be over!

I have to say, during no game so far have I simply relied on the shooting only... each game has involved combat once the odds were back in my favour or the scenario/situation demanded it.

First game was reconnoitre against Dwarves on a pretty big table. Scenario and opponents suited Grey company quite well and once the long advance towards my lines was done and his left flank collapsed, I was able to surround and overwhelm - so nothing wrong with that I suppose.

Second game was high ground with my opponents starting on the objective with easterling/harad force. This time my bows did NOTHING so assaulting the position in the final turn was all I could do and some tense combats produced a draw. So again, nothing wrong with that I suppose!

Third game was 250pts of GC allied with Ste's Gondor vs Hashut's Dwarves and again, shooting wasn't really a factor. We were aggressive, particularly on the right flank and it wasn't particularly a shooty game.

Fourth was the first attempt with the all cav Rohirrim vs Knighty using, High Ground scenario. Maybe my most skirmishy game, but even then that was about positioning and the game ended with a couple of charges to secure the objective, so I suppose that wasn't a case of completely avoiding combat at all costs.

Same really with the last game, the mammoth 8 hour contest. We didn't just skirmish. On the left it drew dwarves on which were in turn charged and then only got out of dodge when it didn't look at favourable, with Gimli and masses of hobbits arriving! On the right we had really slogged it out to take the flank from the dwarven rangers who had performed well and the game probably took so long as I realised killing Balin had to be a priority, so took everything from the left flank and started moving it over to the right, so instead of King of the Dead running from Balin, this was reversed.

So I guess in retrospect I've not really taken the shooty game too far and only used it to swing odds in my favour or in consideration of objectives but I am acutely aware of that line so it's been interesting hearing everyone's opinion!

Everyone has been having fun so far so I guess the main objective has been successfully reached!

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:13 pm 
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:roll: I thought this was about tictacs

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:01 pm 
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It is, isn't it? :?

It's about whether using the seemingly vital skirmish based tactics for Rohirrim or shooty based tactics for Grey Company is acceptable gaming etiquette and whether general opinion minds these tactics being repeatedly used against them or otherwise.


I think!! :(

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:35 pm 
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Haha, nobody else call tactics, tictacs from time to time, or is that just me?

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:23 am 
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I think tictacs for tactics is a Southerner thing - most Northerners I've said it to give me a blank look :P

As I keep telling you - Rohan is a guerilla army. Nip into range, shoot and get out of range. When their numbers are down, charge in and dart back out, firing as you go.

The Grey Company doesn't have that maneauvrability to do the same - they basically shoot and then spear support in the right places. Getting them into position is key.

The trouble is, so far, you've faced armies that struggle to deal with meneauvrable foes - I.E. Dwarfs have low numbers (ergo, little shooting to retaliate: once it's gone, you just shoot them and watch them die - NO amount of terrain saves you then - whilst running around them laughing as they can't catch you on horses...) and Hobbits/Dwarfs can't chase you down (your 5" move and shoot matching their 5"/4" move).

When you come up against a mounted or shootier army, that's when you'll struggle and have to realise consider target priority.
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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Yes, get those pictures up Hashut!

Aye, tactics should never be set in stone before your opponents come to the field anyway and I hope that when the time comes and I'm facing an enemy suited for countering the strengths of the grey company or rohirrim that I react accordingly!

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:12 pm 
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I would have to counter a little to say human bows vs. Dwarves is not really something I would say is "unfair". Dwarves have potentially some of the highest armor values in the game for basic troops. Against typical human bows even after a hit (with -1 if any movement is involved) you will still need a 6 much of the time. If the Dwarves can use terrain to help provide an "In the Way" then they just increased their survivability more.

Yes, the slow speed is going to make their ability to close on their foes that much harder simply because there will be an extra few turns due to the stumpy legs. But behind their shields and with their heavy armor the losses shouldn't be THAT significant.

Add in the Dwarves could bring along some of their own Rangers. With a good shoot value an targeting at the more lightly armored GC I would think the Rangers could inflict a few kills of their own before being taken out. Not only would this reduce the number of GC left to shoot/fight, but also every turn the GC is directing fire to eliminate the Dwarf Rangers is a turn of reduced shooting at the armored Dwarf Warriors which should be trudging along at best speed to put an axe in the foolish men.

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:06 pm 
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Quote:
I would have to counter a little to say human bows vs. Dwarves is not really something I would say is "unfair". Dwarves have potentially some of the highest armor values in the game for basic troops. Against typical human bows even after a hit (with -1 if any movement is involved) you will still need a 6 much of the time. If the Dwarves can use terrain to help provide an "In the Way" then they just increased their survivability more.


Unfair, certainly not. It all balances out (or should do!) But whilst they have the high armour values, the high number of bows in the Grey Company still made enough of a dent, targeting softer troops like archers, iron guards etc that needed 6's to kill instead of 6's and 4's (that I needed to kill dwarves with shields)

That's 5 or 6 turns of shooting before they reached my lines with no minus one to shoot value, with 31 bows, 7 of them having might if necessary to get those 6's. Being a relatively small force numbers wise anyway and with no spear support, that means that what is left could be overwhelmed and taken to 25%.

Not saying they don't have a chance, but you could see why it was difficult for him!

Quote:
Yes, the slow speed is going to make their ability to close on their foes that much harder simply because there will be an extra few turns due to the stumpy legs. But behind their shields and with their heavy armor the losses shouldn't be THAT significant.


I think Hashut took away from that game that the difference between having dwarves without shields and having them with shields makes a big big difference against strength 2 bows. When Iron Guard are being referred to as "squishies" you know something is up!

Quote:
Add in the Dwarves could bring along some of their own Rangers. With a good shoot value an targeting at the more lightly armored GC I would think the Rangers could inflict a few kills of their own before being taken out. Not only would this reduce the number of GC left to shoot/fight, but also every turn the GC is directing fire to eliminate the Dwarf Rangers is a turn of reduced shooting at the armored Dwarf Warriors which should be trudging along at best speed to put an axe in the foolish men.


First time around he brought dwarven archers, which meant they were outranged by the GC as well as being outnumbered. They became "squishies" that simply went towards hitting that 50% breaking point as far as I was concerned!

Hashut quickly learned from this too and has since deployed rangers instead, which performed very well in the last game. But they'll always be outnumbered in the bow fight with GC or even mounted Rohan. Not saying there is nothing Dwarves can do in this situation as that is rubbish but the challenge has to be appreciated in order to be dealt with!

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:58 pm 
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Being a relatively small force numbers wise anyway and with no spear support, that means that what is left could be overwhelmed and taken to 25%.


Why do you keep saying that dwarves will be outnumbered by GC? Bow-wise they will be, but not in total numbers. A couple of quick 500 point armies I whipped up:

Arathorn
12 rangers
halbarad
12 rangers (spears)
6 rotn (3 spears)

32 units, 497 points, 31 shots

Balin w/ axe
11 dwarf w/shield
shieldbearer
11 dwarf w/shield
shielbearer
11 dwarf w/bow

36 units 502 points, 11 shots

If you use terrain, and keep your archers behind shield bearing dwarves until they are in shooting range, you will take very few casualties. Once you are in range you will be wounding on 5's, with your opponent needing 6/4's, or an itw, and then a six.

I would take the dwarves any day; especially in a straight up deathmatch.
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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Lol I keep saying it because I'm using the example of what I've been up against so far. Not a general statement, I'm far too inexperienced at this hobby for that! But if it is being challenged that the dwarven force I was up against could have performed better, I would argue that it was limited, that the conditions, which include the army list, scenario, opponent... Everything, meant that the GC had the advantage.

That doesn't mean that they would have it all the time against every dwarven list in every scenario :?

If you read my post, I'm referring to a specific match, not all sbg battles ever :P

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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:28 pm 
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Oaky, that makes sense. I just wanted to make sure that you, or someone else reading this, wouldn't think that dwarves will be outnumbered and destroyed every time they go against GC. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Skirmishy tictacs "etiquette"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:27 am 
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theavenger001 wrote:
Oaky, that makes sense. I just wanted to make sure that you, or someone else reading this, wouldn't think that dwarves will be outnumbered and destroyed every time they go against GC. :)


Certainly not :) I agree with you!

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