All times are UTC


It is currently Wed Dec 11, 2024 7:47 am



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 110 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:15 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:47 pm
Posts: 1040
Location: Newton Aycliffe, UK
Draugluin wrote:
Wow, NOT watching an hour and half worth of video.


You don't have to, you can just listen to it like I did while I did something else.

_________________
My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:56 pm 
Elven Warrior
Elven Warrior
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:08 am
Posts: 775
Location: Notts, UK
Watched the 1st video. Basically he makes some good points and counter points but if he is right we are boned!
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:27 pm 
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:56 pm
Posts: 18
Images: 3
Went into my local GW to see things for myself. Inevitably I was approached by the standard issue personal space invader geek, presumably cloned in the spawning pits of Lenton. I know it's his job to stick to the company line, but my tip for GW is that when you have a difficult and unpopular message to convey, don't use a condescending complacent nerd with the emotional intelligence of tree bark.

Essentially, the explanation offered is that we are all so, so lucky to have this infinitely superior resin product at the same price the metals would have been!

So, no price hike in real terms and we are all getting such a super, if brittle,treat. I asked how the fans were taking it and was told that he always took what is said on the forums with a pinch of salt.

I did not, at the time, stop to think, but (i) who says they want resin and aren't there quality control issues? I am not sure any product that requires soaking in water prior to assembly is ready for the mass market at the top end of retail pricing, (ii) yes, but that would still make your metals more expensive than other quality ranges (China has evidently not bought all the metal in the world quite yet), (iii) what about the hikes for other products such as source books and plastic box sets and why are your plastics so badly left behind by other, smaller manufacturers in terms of scuplting and production quality and multi-part adaptability. And these superior plastics are much CHEAPER!

No, I did not think any of these things at the time. I was focussing too stongly on not hitting him.

Now I have seen and heard for myself, I am even more surprised at how completely loopy GW's position now is. The only ones loopier are those who still buy their minis. Time for these saps to diminish and go into the west.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:30 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:48 pm
Posts: 1979
Location: Birmingham, UK
Images: 6
cereal_theif wrote:
Watched the 1st video. Basically he makes some good points and counter points but if he is right we are boned!


Would you mind elaborating?

_________________
"There are few left in Middle Earth like Aragorn, son of Arathorn." - Gandalf, Many Meetings
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:48 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:47 pm
Posts: 1040
Location: Newton Aycliffe, UK
Spodulike wrote:
Went into my local GW to see things for myself. Inevitably I was approached by the standard issue personal space invader geek, presumably cloned in the spawning pits of Lenton.


I don't encounter this type of GW employee often. Admittedly though I've only visited a small handful, and just two more than once. There was one at my old Local GW, Darlington. And apparently he was a right **** too. (I later heard a horror story involving him knocking a small child over,and presumably hurting him or her, and just brushing the whole thing off as nothing). Then I moved to Middlesbrough when I went to the Uni there and started going to the Middlesbrough GW. None of the staff there are like the kind you describe. Although, I don't visit GW often anymore, and the old staff have been replaced by new guys who I have only met twice.

Spodulike wrote:
Essentially, the explanation offered is that we are all so, so lucky to have this infinitely superior resin product at the same price the metals would have been!


When in reality Finecast is at a significant markup and is by far inferior to their previous metal castings (at least for now, but I have no faith that they will fix the resin casting problems altogether).

Spodulike wrote:
So, no price hike in real terms and we are all getting such a super, if brittle,treat. I asked how the fans were taking it and was told that he always took what is said on the forums with a pinch of salt.


Well he probably has a point there.

Spodulike wrote:
(ii) yes, but that would still make your metals more expensive than other quality ranges (China has evidently not bought all the metal in the world quite yet), (iii) what about the hikes for other products such as source books and plastic box sets and why are your plastics so badly left behind by other, smaller manufacturers in terms of scuplting and production quality and multi-part adaptability. And these superior plastics are much CHEAPER!


Indeed. I urge everyone to consider the historical ranges of Wargames Factory, Gripping Beast and Crusader Miniatures.

Spodulike wrote:
Now I have seen and heard for myself, I am even more surprised at how completely loopy GW's position now is. The only ones loopier are those who still buy their minis. Time for these saps to diminish and go into the west.


I agree. A lot of people are making excuses for GW and its practices of late, which (though sensible from a business perspective) I find simply unacceptable as a customer. As the guy in the video says, I think some of what they've done could be considered unethical.

_________________
My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:04 pm 
Elven Warrior
Elven Warrior
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:08 am
Posts: 775
Location: Notts, UK
Basically the dude is saying GW's in a long term scheme to force indi stockists to stop stocking GW, once they have been gently forced out the market GW can soak up the sales.

The idea throughout the vid is that
GW get 100% of the money if you buy from them but only 50% if you buy from indi stockists
GW wants money
GW doesn't really care for indi stockists.

He also floats that
Indi stockist can avoid putting prices up quite as much as GW are. e.g. gw raise price from £15 to £18. Indi could just do it at £16 for a few months.
THEN he floats that
Most indi stockists dont sell the quantity to really do discounts. Every sale counts so full price is needed.

Basically the summary is
If GW are doing what he thinks, then in the next 3-7 years we will see indi stockists almost stop. THEN we will see GW announce no more indi stockists. Then we will all pay full price for stuff.

Though he does say if we all pay full price then the prices would not have to be so high as GW will take 100% of everything we spend.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:35 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:47 pm
Posts: 1040
Location: Newton Aycliffe, UK
cereal_theif wrote:
Though he does say if we all pay full price then the prices would not have to be so high as GW will take 100% of everything we spend.


Do you seriously believe GW would do that? 'cos you know...this IS GW we're talking about. Even if they actually DID achieve that, I think they'd rather just leave the prices as they are and wait for general Inflation to catch up rather than actually decrease prices.

_________________
My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:47 pm 
Elven Warrior
Elven Warrior
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:14 am
Posts: 845
Location: Portugal
All i say is this... Metal mini's did u have any problem with them? No. U buy a blister, with metal mini's. THEY ARE PERFECT and metal mini's are just awsome.

The new FINECAST WITH SUPERIOR AND CHEAPER MATERIAL, u buy them, you have any problem? MAYBE, LET ME SEE IF MY MINI's HAVE BUBBLES <--- GO TO HELL GAMES WORKSHOP, BETTER MINI'S MY A** 8) and about the price's oh come on.......like we could ever know what is realy going on.......................................................................

They know we want those mini's... thats the only thing on the table.. They dont have competition, they are the only one's casting LOTR mini's and some others games they have, what can you do? Buy diferent mini's and use them in LOTR? Sure... But i doubt many ppl will do that because they are not LOTR mini's. Its like a drug. U know u want it :)

Its is just my opinion :roll: 8)

_________________
Want to see all my work and my collection of mini's? Check here http://bloodiest-frodo.blogspot.com/
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:06 am 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:16 pm
Posts: 138
Chris wrote:
All i say is this... Metal mini's did u have any problem with them? No. U buy a blister, with metal mini's. THEY ARE PERFECT and metal mini's are just awsome.

The new FINECAST WITH SUPERIOR AND CHEAPER MATERIAL, u buy them, you have any problem? MAYBE, LET ME SEE IF MY MINI's HAVE BUBBLES <--- GO TO HELL GAMES WORKSHOP, BETTER MINI'S MY A** 8) and about the price's oh come on.......like we could ever know what is realy going on.......................................................................

They know we want those mini's... thats the only thing on the table.. They dont have competition, they are the only one's casting LOTR mini's and some others games they have, what can you do? Buy diferent mini's and use them in LOTR? Sure... But i doubt many ppl will do that because they are not LOTR mini's. Its like a drug. U know u want it :)

Its is just my opinion :roll: 8)



Actually about 3 weeks prior to Finecast getting released i ordered a Gandalf the Grey foot and mounted. Both of the models were missing their swords! They had the hilts, proper pose, but there wasn't a sword in the blister!?

Also had an Elladan show up with a broken sword still in the blister.

My view is this, you want price increases to stop? Other than inflation + overall increased minimum wages, stop buying from Ebay/amazon/online distributors. The more this occurs, the more the prices will increase in order for GW to keep their profit margin. I'm guilty of this too, but i try my hardest to always buy from GW, its their product, they deserve the profit.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:21 am 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:47 pm
Posts: 1040
Location: Newton Aycliffe, UK
Chris wrote:
They dont have competition, they are the only one's casting LOTR mini's


That is the ONLY reason why they can get away with it - because of the licence.

_________________
My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:37 am 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:47 pm
Posts: 1040
Location: Newton Aycliffe, UK
thelordcal wrote:
Actually about 3 weeks prior to Finecast getting released i ordered a Gandalf the Grey foot and mounted. Both of the models were missing their swords! They had the hilts, proper pose, but there wasn't a sword in the blister!?

Also had an Elladan show up with a broken sword still in the blister.
.

yes, of course metal was not perfect. But the seriously defective models were nowhere near as frequent as with Finecast. Finecast has been proven to have severe Quality Assurance issues (from the moulds degrading faster than GW anticipated, to lazy incompetent QA staff according to One Ring members in the know). Only time will tell if these problems with resin casting are just growing pains or the new norm. I don't have any great faith in GW to sort the problem for good.

thelordcal wrote:
My view is this, you want price increases to stop? Other than inflation + overall increased minimum wages, stop buying from Ebay/amazon/online distributors. The more this occurs, the more the prices will increase in order for GW to keep their profit margin. I'm guilty of this too, but i try my hardest to always buy from GW, its their product, they deserve the profit.


Thats some warped logic. As prices rise, people become ever more reluctant to pay full Retail Prices. I'd say that GW increasing prices is a direct effect of people looking for discounts. Just last week, I bought 4 models off ebay for the first time in my life. I got for £6, models which would have cost me £32 from GW (maybe even more, with Finecast and having to get them as parts of boxed sets or multi model blisters). Its also the first time I ever bought LOTR models from outside GW. That is a direct result of GW's prices. The more they raise price, the more I will look elsewhere. In fact, I've already decided not to buy models from them anymore (only paint as they last long, and black library novels), and will not until they bring their prices DOWN.

And they can easily stop Online retailers, by refusing to them Sell wholesale (or w.e. its called when a manufacturer sells to a retailer), or changing the terms of contract by setting a minimum price for retailers (they did something similar by banning EU retailers shipping to Australia). Or they could only supply Retailers with older stuff, making sure that New Releases can be found only in GW stores.

I just cannot accept your reasoning at all...I don't think this is GW trying to maintain their profit margin, I think this is GW trying to drive it up, as far as it can go (and knowing it's blind stupidity even beyond what the market will accept). I really do think that they would be pefectly happy if hundreds of thousands fewer people played their games and collected their miniatures, just so they could bring more sales in house.

I think this is something we will see happen in Australia. Prices there are more than double ours in the UK, and as they restrict international trade even more, fewer Australians will buy their models and thus fewer will play their games. I don't think all the trade originally generated by these retailers will be absorbed by GW - more likely that at least 50% of people will look elsewhere to other companies, games and models.

_________________
My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:11 am 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:16 pm
Posts: 138
Let me expand and perhaps it will not seem like "warped logic"

Frankly, i've been annoyed over the constant complaining that persists over the Interwebs (not even on this site) about GW and their price increases and how they're not loyal to the consumer and are given an image of being a big greedy profit driven company.

You can't break down their price increases as them always trying to make more money. In fact at closer examination you may understand that most price increases are to keep their same margin, and cover all of their costs.

It costs millions and millions of dollars to run a company as large as GW. They're also an international company, I know they have several different distribution centers on several continents, not to mention countries. That means they're paying different Tax rates, not to mention steeper tax rates, for doing international business. This also entails having a different team of lawyers/accountants for every country they do business. This adds up rather quickly. Lets now calculate, labor costs, which includes Health Benefits for i don't know how many employees. Add in Patents, licensing agreements, publishing rights, which creates a huge amount of cost to run a company based on models and wargaming.

I can't speak for other countries, but i have quite a few friends who work Full time for GW and are quite pleased with the competitive salary and health care packages they are given.

This all adds up fast! So every time you see a price increase, its much deeper than, "GW is just trying to make more money off me the consumer" For instance, taxes increase on an almost yearly basis!

Making statements such as people have presented in this thread, is extremely ignorant to how modern business/economics work. Its a far deeper issue than them wanting to make more money.

About Australia, the prices their are at the same percentage of average wages where the US and UK are. While not true for everyone, the average yearly income in Australia is higher than compared to other countries.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:43 am 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:47 pm
Posts: 1040
Location: Newton Aycliffe, UK
thelordcal wrote:
Let me expand and perhaps it will not seem like "warped logic"


:oops: Sorry, got carried away. I just disagree strongly that its people buying from Ebay and other retailers that prompts GW to raise its prices. I take the opposite view from you - while GW prices rise above and people's ability to pay, they will inevitably look elsewhere for prices which they can afford to pay.

thelordcal wrote:
Frankly, i've been annoyed over the constant complaining that persists over the Interwebs (not even on this site) about GW and their price increases and how they're not loyal to the consumer and are given an image of being a big greedy profit driven company. You can't break down their price increases as them always trying to make more money. In fact at closer examination you may understand that most price increases are to keep their same margin, and cover all of their costs.


Of course not, and I'm not doing that - of course they have to take inflation and rising costs into account. But that doesn't adequetely explain a lot of their other "d***moves, for lack of a better term.

thelordcal wrote:
This all adds up fast! So every time you see a price increase, its much deeper than, "GW is just trying to make more money off me the consumer" For instance, taxes increase on an almost yearly basis!


Thats not what anyone is saying. We're not complaining that they're trying to make more money off us - we're complaining that they're increasing prices at a rate much greater than we can absorb. Seriously, who can afford to make WOTR Finecast armies these days? (Fiefdoms for instance). And we're complaining about the Stealth increases - 50% size boxes for 60% of the old price. And the stranglehold on Online Retailers. The draconian rules on fan use of IP - Warhammer fans not being able to name a Forum after their game, Online Retailers not being allowed to display an image of the products they're selling, Australians being prevented from looking for better deals.

thelordcal wrote:
About Australia, the prices their are at the same percentage of average wages where the US and UK are. While not true for everyone, the average yearly income in Australia is higher than compared to other countries.


I think we need an Autralians input on that one.

_________________
My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:20 pm 
Elven Elder
Elven Elder
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:42 pm
Posts: 3131
Location: In Angband, at Morgoth's feet.
The minimum wage in Australia is over twice what it is in the US. Actually, EVERYONE is saying that "GW is just trying to make more money off me the consumer", that's what this thread is all about.

_________________
:saruman "Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:08 pm 
Elven Warrior
Elven Warrior
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:08 am
Posts: 775
Location: Notts, UK
The minimum wage in the US is unlivable. Hence the US has a huge number of people with jobs living on the international poverty line. A shining example of how a country should not be.

Tbh GW is a buisness not a friend. Like your public house landlord. He will do an offer to get you to sit down "jug of beer for £5" then once you sitting "£3 a pint" then once you are hammered "how about a shot of **** for £5 a shot"
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:40 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:47 pm
Posts: 1040
Location: Newton Aycliffe, UK
Yeah well...The time comes when you decide that you're no longer getting value for money, but are just getting ripped off. That point has come for me so I no longer buy direct from GW but from Online Retailers, Second Hand at Bring & Buy, and Ebay - and I mainly just buy the older stuff from the time of the last sourcebooks like Gondor, Mordor and Arnor - not of those White Dwarf Releases. The most recent model I have, is probably the Undying, from the Mordor sourcebook. For most of the 9 years that I've been playing, I was perfectly happy to buy direct from GW, by going into stores, talking to the staff, browsing the shelves, looking at the cool displays etc. I supported the hobby and GW by buying direct from them always. The prices were always high compared to what else is available out there, but I was content - there was an "equilibrium" so to speak. But that "equilibrium" is long gone - GW keeps pushing prices up at a speed which seems unreasonable to me.

Out of interest - at what point will you guys draw the line? The way you're talking, it seems like you couldn't care less how high GW pushes its prices and will keep buying regardless.

_________________
My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:56 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:42 pm
Posts: 1736
Location: CA
King Ondoher wrote:
Out of interest - at what point will you guys draw the line? The way you're talking, it seems like you couldn't care less how high GW pushes its prices and will keep buying regardless.


That depends on a few things. First and foremost, how long I can keep getting good, fun games in with a few friends. Not a lot of them have tons of models, but that's fine as I can build fairly competitive 500-pt armies for just about every LoME faction save Hobbits and Mahud. It also depends on my income. Back in high school when I was working part time at a Tim Horton's I would allot around $50-60 a month (of course it would get you more in those days, like a plastic boxed set and a blister or 2.) Now, with a better job at a better wage I can afford at least double that. I will continue to buy bits and bobs to fill holes in my collection, as well as new models as they come out. However, having said all that I still go by dollar amount rather than number of boxes or blisters.

If and when the time comes that I don't find myself playing hardly at all, I'll quit buying and sell off a good chunk of the collection.

_________________
Gondor: 2339pts
Rohan: 1318pts
Dwarves: 2482pts
Elves: 1091pts
Mordor: 2305pts
Isengard: 1762pts
Moria: 1463pts
Evil Men: 381pts
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:08 pm 
Kinsman
Kinsman
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:10 pm
Posts: 179
The argument that GW is a profit company gets boring.

I could and would spend much more money with GW products if they would stop to make stupid decisions (finecast) and if they would start to support customers properly and care for customers. The latter is a sign of a profit company btw. And good marketing would help also. There marketing is hardcore stupid.

But they choose to put me off.

I refuse to buy any finecast and I will stay with this decision. So they loose money and I'm not the only one.

To be honest the pricing is outrageous, but for good new metal units i would pay even double. Right now I won't spend a single penny. And I'm quite sure they will release no metall units for the Hobbit, so no Hobbit units for me, and as a hardcore fan I don't wanna know what I would have spend for those units otherwise. But this material kills everything what makes this hobby fun for me. For me its like selling a piece of s h i t.

And btw, the red shirts a complete social autists. Speaking for Germany here. Maybe its sufficient for small kids, but that's it.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:33 pm 
Elven Elder
Elven Elder
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:04 pm
Posts: 6308
Location: Wandering around looking for Middle-earth
Images: 58
Some of them will be plastic though, you not a fan of plastic either?

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: (deserves its own thread) I could be overreacting but...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:35 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:47 pm
Posts: 1040
Location: Newton Aycliffe, UK
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Some of them will be plastic though, you not a fan of plastic either?


Not when they cost more than £1 a miniature, personally.

_________________
My (more regularly updated) painting blog:
https://www.facebook.com/Pindergorn/
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 110 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 257 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: