Gothmog, Orc or Not?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:29 am

ForgottenLore wrote:

WayUnderTheMountain wrote:

I have only one reason that I don't like Gothmog as a orc. My reason is that the force he unleashed at the Battle of Pelennor Fields was all Men.

No, the Siege of Gondor chapter specifically mentions orcs as being involved in digging the trenches that surrounded the city.

WayUndertheMountain is correct, Gothmog led the reinforcements and they were all men and no orcs.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

WayUnderTheMountain wrote:

Yet it was the Witch King who commanded the Seige of Minas Tirith, where the Orcs you mentioned participated, while Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul, was in Osgiliath in command of the reinforcements which consisted of Evil Men.

Tolkien's wording (flung versus brought) suggests Gothmog was not yet on the Fields of the Pelennor

That is where we disagree. I see the phrasing "He flung them into the fray" as indicating that Gothmog was already in the field and he was simply ordering them to join him.

I think we are agreed though that there were orcs involved int he attack ont eh city, but that the reserves from Osgiliath were all men.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:25 pm

I agree with ForgottenLore actually, not because of the word 'fling' but because it said the reinforcements were waiting for the Witch-king's call, buthe was killed, so Gothmog called for them instead. Although it is still open to interpretyation.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:09 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Also, if anyone wants to see a picture of John Howe (who scetched for the films)'s depiction of Gothmog as a Black Numenorean, look no further than my avatar.

I was wondering where that image came from. It reminded me of his work but wasn't one of the ones I've seen much of myself so I didn't recognize it. What is the full image it is taken from?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:37 pm

Beowulf03809 wrote:

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Also, if anyone wants to see a picture of John Howe (who scetched for the films)'s depiction of Gothmog as a Black Numenorean, look no further than my avatar.

I was wondering where that image came from. It reminded me of his work but wasn't one of the ones I've seen much of myself so I didn't recognize it. What is the full image it is taken from?

It is the full image, it's one of several face-only scetches of Gothmog that he did, if you want to see others, here's a link to his site:

http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/search.php

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:14 pm

Thanks. Of the four there I think you picked the best, though I do like the way the helm of two others really reflects the Numenorian heritage. I was really considering using the MoS and GW's Morgul Knights as the primary helm / armor influence but I'm going to think more about it before I do anything.

Jamros · **Posted:** Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:44 am

Hmm, I've always thought Gothmog in LotR either had to be a Ringwraith or an orc. I think there's been some good discussion in this thread to suggest that it's likely he would have been some sort of man. I just have a few abstract ideas; I think his name likely suggests he is a man rather than a Ringwraith. This is opinionated, but, if we are assuming that Gothmog the Lieutenant is named after Gothmog the Balrog, it doesn't seem likely that a Ringwraith would name himself after or would be named after a creature of lesser of equal power from an earlier time period. In fact, Ringwraiths don't seem like the type of creatures to be named after anything. For a man, however, that would seem much more likely. I guess technically speaking there's no reason a Ringwraith couldn't be named after a Balrog, or that the latter Gothmog is not named after the Balrog at all--its just an assumption based on the the hierarchy of creatures within Middle-earth.

As I was reading through the thread, I was wondering, with the evidence of Gothmog NOT being an orc, why would PJ make him an orc? I think PJ really placed a heavy emphasis on orcs in the films, and its likely he felt that they needed a leader that represented them as a race. Gothmog is such an obscure character in the novel that making him an orc would be relatively acceptable, and would give the force of orcs that assaulted Osgiliath and Minas Tirith a recognizable "face," so to speak.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:33 am

Jamros wrote:

As I was reading through the thread, I was wondering, with the evidence of Gothmog NOT being an orc, why would PJ make him an orc? I think PJ really placed a heavy emphasis on orcs in the films, and its likely he felt that they needed a leader that represented them as a race. Gothmog is such an obscure character in the novel that making him an orc would be relatively acceptable, and would give the force of orcs that assaulted Osgiliath and Minas Tirith a recognizable "face," so to speak.

That's similar to what I posted above as well. Orcs are an easily identified "evil" in a film and therefore having their field commander be the biggest, ugliest and smartest among them really helps an audience understand and accept. A film maker always has to make changes when bringing a book to the screen, no way around that, and some changes may be easier than others. The emphasis in both Sauron's and Saruman's army even more on Orc over Men in their service helps simplify the message of threat without having to bring up a lot of the history and current politics of Middle-Earth. It's an easy "face" to the army and the evil.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:54 pm

Beowulf has kind of got it right there Jamros. The original intention was not for him to be in the film, the foot army was entirelly an orc rabble with Easterlings. But then they designed the more elite "Morannon" Orcs and needed a leadre for them on the ground as they only other command for them was the Witch-king on his fell beast and Sauron in his tower, so they decided they wanted an Orc leader for them, and they noticed the one line-reference to a Gothmog character,s o they named the ORc, Gothmog.

Oh and Beowulf, I'm very interested to see more of your project in futuure

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:56 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Oh and Beowulf, I'm very interested to see more of your project in futuure

It will be a while before I get to a Gothmog-as-Numenorian conversion. I don't plan on using such a character unless I am in a tournament class event where things are over the top anyway and Gothmog + Nazgul are a sad reality. I'm shifting gears to Harad for a while and only working on my other evil army a little at a time as a distraction. The next conversion I am doing for my Dol Guldur force is a character to use the Druzhag profile but fit in more with the Dol Guldur army theme I have. It will give a little more magic punch without pulling in more named Wraiths and will help me bolster the Spider population of the army without cutting into my Ally points too much (I want to save them for various dead of Angmar).

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:36 pm

Beowulf, I am sending you a PM because this is going off topic, and I still want to continue discussion.

Elland · **Joined:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:55 am **Posts:** 181

I would say "no" to Gothmog being a Ringwraith, as we know that aside from the Witch King (who is only given the title), that there was only one named ringwraith - Khamul the Easterling.

Encyclopedia of Arda wrote:

Khamûl is notable as being the only one of the Ringwraiths for whom we are given a personal name.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:17 pm

Elland wrote:

I would say "no" to Gothmog being a Nzagul, as we know that aside from the Witch King (who is only given the title), that there was only one named ringwraith - Khamul the Easterling.

Encyclopedia of Arda wrote:

Khamûl is notable as being the only one of the Ringwraiths for whom we are given a personal name.

How do ypu know Tolkien didn't change his mind, like he did about Balrogs?

Jamros · **Posted:** Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:33 pm

Well, I don't think Tolkien himself said that Khamul is the only named Ringwraith ("I decided that Khamul was the only Ringwraith I was going to give a personal name")--the fact of the matter is that Khamul just happens to be the only definite Ringwraith clearly given a name. This does not mean that Gothmog can't be a Ringwraith, but Encyclopedia of Arda would have had to *assume* that Gothmog was not a Ringwraith in order to make that statement. It's impossible to prove either way, so they went with concrete fact: Khamul is a Ringwraith, Khamul is named, Gothmog is unknown, Gothmog is named. Therefore, "Khamul is notable as being the only one of the Ringwraiths for whom we are given a personal name." Even with that being said, I feel rather convinced that Gothmog was a man.

Elland · **Joined:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:55 am **Posts:** 181

Thought just occurred to me (which I do not have time to investigate), but what about looking at the origin of the name? What are Orc names based from? Men? Elves? Is there a common root that he used when giving the various races names? If so, can the origin of the name "gothmog" be identified, and if so, does it coincide with a particular race's naming origins?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:32 pm

Elland wrote:

Thought just occurred to me (which I do not have time to investigate), but what about looking at the origin of the name? What are Orc names based from? Men? Elves? Is there a common root that he used when giving the various races names? If so, can the origin of the name "gothmog" be identified, and if so, does it coincide with a particular race's naming origins?

The namee Gothmog is a regurtation of the name Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs from the first age, which if you read further back, you will notice has already been mentioned!

Elland · **Joined:** Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:55 am **Posts:** 181

Elland wrote:

...which I do not have time to investigate...

Jamros · **Posted:** Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:45 am

A bit of research--Gothmog in Sindarin means "Dread Oppressor." Honestly that could be a Ringwraith (knowing their relationship with orcs), an overbearing orc leader, or a man forcing unwilling men into the service of Sauron. Also, on how Gothmog is depicted in other adaptations--in The War of the Ring board game, Gothmog is indeed a Ringwraith. In the Middle-earth Collectible Card Game, Gothmog is a troll!

I think the name in combination with the only time he is mentioned may suggest that Gothmog was most likely a Black Numenorean who was heavily involved in forcing realms like Harad, Rhun, and Khand into service for Sauron. These are big leaps...but with such little information, any definite leap would be kind of large. And...I've just thought, wouldn't it make sense for a Ringwraith to choose another Ringwraith to be 2nd in command?

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Jamros wrote:

And...I've just thought, wouldn't it make sense for a Ringwraith to choose another Ringwraith to be 2nd in command?

Yes, but it also makes sense to not burden the Nazgul with the responsibilities of command. Overall commander in chief, planning the whole attack is one thing, but once the battle is actually joined I would think you would want the wraiths in the thick of it. Yes, each and every one of them is in all likelihood an exceptional military tactician, but their primary strength, their greatest weapon, is the fear and confusion and loss of morale that they can cause among the enemy. You don't want one of them on the ground leading your own forces, and you certainly don't want one of them in the rear, marshaling reserves as some of the people here think Gothmog was doing, you want them flying over the enemy and basically getting him to defeat himself.

Which is what Tolkien indicates they are doing, so while it does make a measure of sense for Gothmog to be a wraith, I don't think it is the case.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:12 pm

You both have agood point but I am with ForgottenLore on this one (I bet that surprised you didn't it)

Gothmog, Orc or Not?

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