War of the Ring Armies Poll

Eorltheyoung · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:06 pm

Gondor - 2nd
Rohan - 7th
Elves - 7th
Dwarves - 3rd
Mordor - 1st
Isengard - 5th
Moria - 4th
Fallen Realms - 5th
Angmar - 9th

I gave a vote to Gondor.

Shadowswarm · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:41 pm

wheres #6 and 8?? even if two things tie you dont skip #s

Xelee · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:53 pm

Traditionally, you do. Or rather, the tied placings take up both numbers, how could they not? There are still two of them

If there is a 1st, and a tied 2nd, the next placing is still 4th - there are still three ranked above it.

FWIW, I'd of course have Elves last too.

hobbitsrule22 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:34 pm

elves last. their so lame. id only ever consider allieing in legolas to my dwarves but other than that i wouldnt touch them

Shadowswarm · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:19 am

ya, i would make a house rule that they have shoot of 2 (or even better cause the whole shoot bonus sucks) and that they all count as having +1 fight in combat.... cause the fight value bonus also sucks....

Xelee · **Posted:** Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:12 am

To be honest, if we see 35pt Uruks with xbows as balanced, then I don't see why we couldn't houserule the more expensive Elves to something similar but different.

I'd suggest denying their targets their shield bonus. This makes them good vs cheap heavy infantry, while not nailing monsters etc any more than they do now.

Easy · **Joined:** Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:25 am **Posts:** 1

To help elves, I would have them reroll misses for shooting and combat. They would remain expensive but deadly, and still vulnerable because of their low armour.

Xelee · **Posted:** Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:49 am

I think that might be a bit much the other way though, Easy. Their Cohort unit is pretty tough while it lasts and Galadrim do pretty well too. If they do their spells/flanking right I think they are okish in CC but their shooting is definitely all wrong.

Shadowswarm · **Posted:** Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:03 am

mmm well even if they can dish out teh pain in close combat they cant take it by any means. for every C they have my gobs have 2-3, so ill end up still dishing out the same pain AND being able to take whatever they do, but elves just die in CC

Xelee · **Posted:** Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:28 pm

If the Elven player at least has the Cohort (def 5/7) and Galadrim (def 4/6), then normal goblins will be hitting on 6's, while the Elves will be hitting back on 5's or even 4's if there are no shields. If it's vs a goblin player who is getting an edge by proxying half their gobs as Blackshields, then it will go much worse for the galadrim. But I think that this is more another case of where this game doesn't hold up too well if people unbalalnce it by taking large multiples of the rares as proxies. GW do allow you to buy a more effective army by paying a premium.

So this will be hard on the Elves, who are much more costly, but doable - assuming they rained bowfire down on the gobs as they came in. ERven more importantly, those Elves need to be making heavy use of heroic fight early in the fights to get that double - hit vs a block of goblins who will be disordered. I've found that a shield line can really bounce gob blocks if it holds its flanks and softens them up with bowfire coming in. That's tougher for Elves, but if they at least ignore shields with bowfire, they will have done a lot of damage before the melees begin. And they will keep doing it in between each round of melee.

DainIronfoot · **Joined:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am **Posts:** 94

Gondor - 2nd
Rohan - 7th
Elves - 6th
Dwarves - 3rd
Mordor - 1st
Isengard - 5th
Moria - 4th
Fallen Realms - 5th
Angmar - 8th

I gave a vote to the elves. Although I dont use them I still think they have good troops and can be a formidable army in skilled hands. I also dont really like rohan.

Morgoth's Dad · **Joined:** Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:08 pm **Posts:** 38

Underpowering the Elves archery was the biggest mistake in the game and so obvious that the developers must have been drunk or asleep while putting the Elf Realm together. How on earth can the bows of Mirkwood Sentinals and Galadhrim archers (the best bowmakers and bowmen in Middle Earth) have the same power as Minas Tirith Warriors?

I'm looking forward to WotR version 2, when the devs sober up. :-D

I don't think it's unreasonable that Longbows in the hands of Elves should be 3 Str (i mean, c'mon shortbow, bow and blowpipe all the same strength!?). My problem in using Elves has never been about hitting with longbows, it's killing when they hit.

Every realm should have its killer unit. Formations of Elven Archers should be feared on the battlefield. They aren't, and that's wrong.

General Elessar · **Posted:** Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:28 pm

I know everyone thinks of Elves as being brilliant at archery, but are there any passages from the book to confirm this?

Morgoth's Dad · **Joined:** Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:08 pm **Posts:** 38

General Elessar wrote:

I know everyone thinks of Elves as being brilliant at archery, but are there any passages from the book to confirm this?

Well according to GW WotR is based on both the books and the films and other sources.

In the films Elrond sends a regiment of archers to assist at Helms Deep, why do that if they weren't his best troops and needed for their skill? (plus they are shooting in the dark)

The guardians in Lorien are able to shoot someone in the dark by listening for them breathing.

The superior vision of Elves is a plus for an archer, commented on several times in the books by Gandalf and Aragorn, and the preferred weapon of Legolas is the bow so i'm assuming all Mirkwood Elves are equally skilled. (i'm thinking 3 str for an Elven bowman is as much about picking a weakness as penetrating armour, not covered by Fight skill)

So Lorien, Rivendell and Mirkwood Elves all have excellent bow skills.

Even in WotR it says that the Galadhrim longbows are the best in Middle-Earth, it would be a bit bizarre if the makers of those bows weren't also its most competent users. Similar the battlefield domination of the English and Welsh longbowmen (their bows weren't made in France).

Plenty of what is in the game isn't mentioned in the books, including quite a few units. Where in The Lord of the Rings does it say Isengard Uruk Hai use crossbows?

Even if we don't accept that Elves are better shots would you agree that Longbows are str 3 when used by anyone?

Xelee · **Posted:** Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:24 pm

Morgoth's Dad, I agree that Elven shooting needs a boost but feel that they are ok simply though being Longbows vs def 3 and even 5. I think that something more targetted is better, else they become too good - especcially vs Monsters. I would suggest just have them always ignore shields. That way they chew up cheap heavy infantry but the more expensive high-def units still get the benifits they paid a premium for and Monsters are not pointless vs Elves.

We also (unless practicing armies for an event) play Corssbows as always move OR shoot (ie no heroic shoot) that greatly tones them down. They are too good otherwise. The generous LOS provisions of WOTR (should be from base centre like Impetus etc IMO) aren't helping any there.

Morgoth's Dad · **Joined:** Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:08 pm **Posts:** 38

Xelee wrote:

Morgoth's Dad, I agree that Elven shooting needs a boost but feel that they are ok simply though being Longbows vs def 3 and even 5. I think that something more targetted is better, else they become too good - especcially vs Monsters. I would suggest just have them always ignore shields. That way they chew up cheap heavy infantry but the more expensive high-def units still get the benifits they paid a premium for and Monsters are not pointless vs Elves.

We also (unless practicing armies for an event) play Corssbows as always move OR shoot (ie no heroic shoot) that greatly tones them down. They are too good otherwise. The generous LOS provisions of WOTR (should be from base centre like Impetus etc IMO) aren't helping any there.

Even ignoring shields they are still only hitting on a 6 vs. something like Morannon Orcs for example. For a whopping 60pts (for High Elf Archers) they should get to ignore shields and have str 3 for longbows in my opinion, maybe only vs. infantry as you say. It's the cost compared to other units without obvious benefits (Morannon Orcs again at 20pts) that's the big problem. You say high Def units pay a premium? Well Elf players pay a massive premium for very little. Maybe make Elves cheaper?

I read on here all the time that very few people want to play Elves and that there are least two or three realms some people won't even consider playing. Everyone's either playing Mordor, Gondor or Dwarves. The game is massively unbalanced i'm afraid and it's a real shame it wasn't put right on release.

Xelee · **Posted:** Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:43 pm

Hi Morgoth's Dad, we've extensively tested those (full rules on thread or at blog linked to in sig) rules now.

Essentially, if you have units damaging on 6s (or even 5s at 18" vs eg Carn Dum, Dunlendings etc) then they can no longer be ignored. You must close and deal with them. There will be 1-2 turns of clear shooting and then there is more shooting between each melee and from any units that were correctly placed out at flanks. I've had an Elven bow unit just live on for four turns becuase it I could only afford to send a single formation after it and that formation failed its terror/failed to come off disorder half the time. That gives the Elves something to work with. In WOTR, they are actually not too bad in melee, and can be quite durable with the right allies.

Another change we made was to have Glaives (another underwhelming Elven upgrade) up the hit priority, so that their inf hit before other inf, and their cav hit before other cav. We have tried to not just throw perks at the Elves and just fix what we saw to be the serious issues and Elven players still have to properly design and play their lists!

As to what people are playing, Isnegard, Moria and Fallen Realms are also very 'hard', Angmar can compete when composed correctly, so the only lists I think work not so well are Elves and Rohan. Not too bad a batting average for the rules design team overall. I very much advocate houseruling, but credit where credit is due, the issues are relatively few and they did very well for a first edition.

Morgoth's Dad · **Joined:** Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:08 pm **Posts:** 38

Xelee wrote:

Hi Morgoth's Dad, we've extensively tested those (full rules on thread or at blog linked to in sig) rules now.

Essentially, if you have units damaging on 6s (or even 5s at 18" vs eg Carn Dum, Dunlendings etc) then they can no longer be ignored. You must close and deal with them. There will be 1-2 turns of clear shooting and then there is more shooting between each melee and from any units that were correctly placed out at flanks. I've had an Elven bow unit just live on for four turns becuase it I could only afford to send a single formation after it and that formation failed its terror/failed to come off disorder half the time. That gives the Elves something to work with. In WOTR, they are actually not too bad in melee, and can be quite durable with the right allies.

Another change we made was to have Glaives (another underwhelming Elven upgrade) up the hit priority, so that their inf hit before other inf, and their cav hit before other cav. We have tried to not just throw perks at the Elves and just fix what we saw to be the serious issues and Elven players still have to properly design and play their lists!

As to what people are playing, Isnegard, Moria and Fallen Realms are also very 'hard', Angmar can compete when composed correctly, so the only lists I think work not so well are Elves and Rohan. Not too bad a batting average for the rules design team overall. I very much advocate houseruling, but credit where credit is due, the issues are relatively few and they did very well for a first edition.

Ok maybe I do over-egg the posts a little, WotR isn't that bad :-D

I agree about Glaives and that (together with only ignoring shields) should, I agree, be enough for Elves. I also agree that at the end of the day it is up to the player to create and design a list that works not just rely on mega-units. One of the reasons I play Elves is that it is far too easy to fling together a cookie-cutter Mordor or Gondor list. I like a challenge and playing Elves is certainly that.

Got a big battle against Mordor coming up soon, as i've mentioned, so I will discuss the changes with my opponent (he agrees with me about Elven archery but might need persuading on Glaives) and let you know how we got on.

Thanks again for the discussion and advice Xelee.

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