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Battle of Five Armies in WotR
http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=27348		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Kasrkin [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Battle of Five Armies in WotR
Hi guys,

A group of friends and I have started playing War of the Ring recently, and we all like the thought of building armies using the Hobbit miniatures. I'm taken with the theme of Laketown so I've started building an army list to transfer them into the game. I'd really appreciate more experienced WOTR players to have a look so you can tell me what you think.

-Master of Laketown - 60pts
F4
R 2
C 3
Mt 3
Inspiring Leader (Men)
Epic Cowardice
Moneybags - Once per turn, a formation within 6" of the Master may pass a Courage test automatically as he encourages the men with promises of gold and jewels.

-Alfred - 25pts
F 3
R 1
C 3
Mt 2
Councellor
Snivelling Coward - May not be the army leader.

-Bard the Bowman - 100pts
F 5
R 2
C 5
Mt 3
Epic Shot
Epic Defence
Inspiring Leader (Men)
Hero of Legend
The Black Arrow - Once per game when performing an Epic Shot, Bard rolls two dice rather than one and uses the highest result.

-Laketown Guard - 15pts
M 6
F 3/4+
S 3
D 4
A 8
R 1
C 3
Hand Weapons, armour
Guard Captain - 50pts (F4, R2, C3, Mt2)
Banner Bearer - 35pts
Hornblower - 15pts
Shields (+5pts) or bows (+5pts)

-Laketown Militia - 15pts
M 6
F 2/5+
S 3
D 3
A 8
R 1
C 2
Hand weapons, bows
Civic Leader - 50pts (F3, R2, C3, Mt2)
Banner Bearer - 35pts
Hornblower - 15pts
Replace bows with shields (free)



I increased the courage of the Guard slightly to make them more distinct from the Militia (so they have a somewhat 'elite' feel) though their captain does not increase it any, and have added the option for shields as they are marching to a full scale battle in this list and I cannot imagine them going without! The Militia are present to make the army much more affordable lol, and the DoS Chronicles book shows artwork of town militia, so why not? Good conversion territory.

This is just a starting point and more units are sure to be added, but I would very much appreciate any input on how it looks at the moment. :-)
Author:  JamesR [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
What's the Laketown guard shoot value?
Author:  Kasrkin [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
Ah missed that, added now (4+). Cheers!
Author:  daersalon [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
The lake towner guards I think should be more like 20 points as they are very similar to Rohan oathsworn. The LT guard are identical except are def 4 while oathsworn are 3(5)

The Militia seem to be similar to goblins in statline and 15 points seems right...

Bard maybe a little more in cost, and lose Inspiring leader.. he is always described as 'Grim' he maybe the descendat and rightful ruler of Dale... but he isnt a personable fellow or very inspiring.

Master of laketown should be at least 80...

and alfred 50...

but nice ideas¬!
Author:  Kasrkin [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
Thanks for your input Daersalon! I find the points for WOTR really awkward to value as the given stats in the book appear to be all over the place...

For the guards, I compared them with the Oathsworn Militia as I was writing them. When equipped with shields they have an extra point of defence but lack thrown weapons. I figured that this would make their effectiveness close to equal- is this incorrect?

I was also under the impression that after killing Smaug, Bard became an inspiring presence for the men of Laketown so that's why I gave him the rule. Do you really think it's inappropriate? What point value would you recommend for him?
Author:  daersalon [ Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
The points costs get tricky, indeed. It is about the weakest area of the system with a number of imbalances. best we can do is compare with equivalents and make the best of it

Lake Town Guards:

At 25 points ( 20 + 5 for shield) they would be comparable to WomT and Men of Numenor, just 1 lower on Def (WomT) or Courage (Numenor), but 15 (+5) seems too cheap.

The advantage is they get bows for 25 points. whereas WomT and Numenoreans pay 30. Again, your point for Oathsworn (with thrown at 20 and with shield or bows) is sound but I still maintain 15 for that statline feels too cheap.

Bard the Bowman:

I understand your point. But I think he is just more capable than The Master and his competence keeps the men true, not his natural 'leadership', and his main 'rival' to compare him with in the eeys of the Laketowners is The Master who is no warleader. He is grim, and focussed and honourable and has been a loner/outsider most of his life. After the death of the dragon people look to him but again I wouldn't say he is naturally inspiring.. Not an easy one to call canonically, but i still land on the non inspiring leader side of the fence :)

I would peg him also at 85 points or thereabouts but giving him Hero of Legend pushes that up some so 105 (without Inspiring Leader) Though I think for this he should also be Resilience 3, especially as he is a survivor.

The Master:

Thinking more I don't think he should have inspiring Leader either. He is a weasly/weak fellow a politician not a battle leader. But I do like your Moneybags Rule. He doesn't inspire, but can get people to do what he wants at times. With 3 Might and the other abilities he should be 75 points at least, even without Inspiring Leader (coming down from my original 80 guesstimate). Though if you make him Might 2 instead I would put that at 60 points.
Author:  Kasrkin [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
This is precisely the sort of conversation I was after :-D so thank you!

I was thinking for a long time about either 15 or 20 points before posting, you've made a good case for it- I shall adjust it to 20 for the Guard.

I think Hero of Legend is justified for Bard (feels right for a guy who slew a dragon), but again you raise very interesting points about him and the other characters- I shall adjust the list and repost it tomorrow.
Author:  daersalon [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
Note GtW made his own stats for these boys and other DoS Hobbit releases (maybe this thread prompted him to get on with it heh) its an alternative reading to your stats and approach. Not necessarily better, but worth taking a look nonetheless.

With all this in WotR go with what feels right, true to the 'world', and also seems fair.
Author:  Kasrkin [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
I've had a look at what he posted, I like some of the things but at the same time there are a lot of complex unique special rules- I'd rather keep things simpler and make use of the appropriate universal special rules. Having the Master and Alfred as a Legendary Formation is pretty cool idea though.

Updated list!

-Master of Laketown - 75pts
F4
R 2
C 3
Mt 2
Epic Cowardice
Moneybags - Once per turn, a formation within 6" of the Master may pass a Courage test automatically as he encourages the men with promises of gold and jewels.

-Alfred - 50pts
F 3
R 1
C 3
Mt 2
Councellor
Snivelling Coward - May not be the army leader.

-Bard the Bowman - 120pts
F 5
R 3
C 5
Mt 3
Epic Shot
Epic Defence
Inspiring Hero (Men)
Hero of Legend
The Black Arrow - Once per game when performing an Epic Shot, Bard rolls two dice rather than one and uses the highest result.

-Laketown Guard - 20pts, 1-6 Companies
M 6
F 3/4+
S 3
D 4
A 8
R 1
C 3
Hand Weapons, armour
Guard Captain - 50pts (F4, R2, C4, Mt2)
Banner Bearer - 35pts
Hornblower - 15pts
Shields (+5pts) or bows (+5pts)

-Laketown Militia - 15pts, 1-9 Companies
M 6
F 2/5+
S 3
D 3
A 8
R 1
C 2
Hand weapons, bows
Civic Leader - 50pts (F3, R2, C3, Mt2)
Banner Bearer - 35pts
Hornblower - 15pts
Replace bows with shields (free)



I am also plotting to add these units to the list;
-Huntsmen (like Rangers of Gondor, these represent the braver militiamen who form the forlorn hope at the Battle of Five Armies)
-Windlance Bolt Thrower (conversion will be fun to make, and it looks cool)
Author:  daersalon [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
Ellorindar also pointed out to me last night that GtW's rules for all the Hobbit and non - WotR but still LotR releases seem to be heavy with special rules. But in discussion with Ellorindar and Harfoot we agreed it's a good effort to have them all and worthy credit to GtW for that and posting them for discussion and a resource for others. Our group (we play WotR weekly) may develop our own codex of statlines as an alternative, based on (literally) 100s of games of WoTR

Kasrkin wrote:
I've had a look at what he posted, I like some of the things but at the same time there are a lot of complex unique special rules- I'd rather keep things simpler and make use of the appropriate universal special rules. Having the Master and Alfred as a Legendary Formation is pretty cool idea though.


I agree and also prefer a slightly simpler reading .. "Less is More!" as the saying goes. Yes The Master and alfred in a Legendary unit does look a very nice idea. Maybe you could rework those two as that?

But revised list. Seems very usable. I see you made Bard 120 points and kept inspiring leader. Without it I say 105. With it. yes 120 maybe even 115, I would have to look at other heroes in this points range.

Windlance. Even before the DoS film came out I have been considering making / converting something to this (had a screensaver shot of one being fired at Smaug). It looks so beautiful, and better than the clunky Roman-esque Ballistae that Gw released for the Dwarves. Would be a terrific modelling project.

Nice ideas and nice thread idea, let us know how they all play out.
Author:  Kasrkin [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Battle of Five Armies in WotR
Thanks Daersalon, I certainly shall do. You've been a lot of help! I have some models on preorder, hopefully they shall arrive on Saturday and I can get to work on them. I've already converted and painted some militia.

GtW indeed does deserve credit for his hard work, it's generous of him to share the house rules he's put together. I'll have a go at my own interpretation of the Master as a legendary formation and see what comes of it.

I have some ideas for building a Windlance, I shall have a try and share how it goes. I think unique units like this are necessary, both for a financial standpoint (lol) and for some variety. I guess there's always allies to be had though!
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