Xelee wrote:
Yes quite, the cheapness that is Gandalf.
but at least there aren't NINE of him...
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| How to kill a dragon? http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=21652 |
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| Author: | dolpin tamroth [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | How to kill a dragon? |
In my experience is very, very difficult, to kill a dragon of the ancient times. If the Dragon is a wizard it's even harder. Do you have any strategy to kill a Dragon? BR Dolpin |
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| Author: | Hashut's Blessing [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
It depends what army you use and what allies you have. If you're a good player, it's made a lot easier by having Legolas hit it with Crippling Shot and you can always use and Epic Shot after that to cause an instant D6 rolls on the table. |
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| Author: | ForgottenLore [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
Yeah, Legalos is devastating to the monsters. Lurtz can also be pretty good at helping an army kill a big monster. In a game last week, my dragon was killed pretty quick by being hit with multiple Strength from Corruptions, (2 wraiths and at least 1 Easterling warpriest), they then proceeded to really mess up my stone giant. Angmar's spirits can do a number on them. The other day saw an oliphant hit with 5 rolls on the table on the first turn from an Angmar player in his first game. (amazingly, those 5 rolls only inflicted one wound). Artillery can be effective, if you can hit. Yes, it is "very, very difficult, to kill a dragon", one might even say "extremely hard to kill", but it is not impossible. Keep in mind that the thing is almost 500 points. How long would it take to kill 19 companies of Warriors of Minas Tirith? One thing I have noticed, the times that I have played with a dragon, is that it is almost more valuable as a distraction, rather than its destructive potential. That game where it died from 9 or so Strength from Corruptions and assorted other spells and attacks, I didn't mind that it died so much because that was turns and turns of magic and a couple of largish formations that were not being directed at the rest of my army, so maybe it isn't so necessary to kill the thing right away either? |
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| Author: | daersalon [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
I managed to nobble a spell casting Dragon AND a Stone Giant at the same time (both rolling on the Extremely Hard to Kill! table) with two Sapper units. Hardly reliable I know but fun to imagine the Sappers setting a charge under the Dragon and hurling anotehr so the Giant stupidly catches it and looks at it as it goes Boom! If you have access to spells of Ruin Bolts of Fire from multiple sources can debilitate the beastie, similarly tremor, especially if strengthened by Epic ruination, and as already suggested artillery has high strength hits. (although you get a -1 as it counts as a single formation so your artillery is likely missing 50% of the time). Any Extremely HArd to Kill! monster is going to soak up the damage and you need to pile on the Wound counters, I think you are best focussing everything on trying to remove it quickly, or considering it has a lot of points tied up in one figure going with ignoring it mostly and concentrating your firepower and forces on other units who will be outnumbered now by your forces and feeding it smaller units or charging it with throwaway units to keep it preoccupied during the charge/Fight phases. As the dragon has Might you could try multiple heroic duels in one round on it from 2 or more heroes after one of them has called an Epic Strike. Slightly risky, but if you had a couple of captains and an Epic hero, have the Epic Hero call the Epic Strike, then have the captains duel the dragon first, to soften it up. |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
daersalon wrote: As the dragon has Might you could try multiple heroic duels in one round on it from 2 or more heroes after one of them has called an Epic Strike. Slightly risky, but if you had a couple of captains and an Epic hero, have the Epic Hero call the Epic Strike, then have the captains duel the dragon first, to soften it up. In the case of the captains, it's more likely that the dragon just eats them both in a duel along with lots of other troops befor the Epic Strike Hero can get in, since they only have a ft value of 4-6. |
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| Author: | daersalon [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote: In the case of the captains, it's more likely that the dragon just eats them both in a duel along with lots of other troops befor the Epic Strike Hero can get in, since they only have a ft value of 4-6. Yeah, I was thinking the Epic Strike gives the Epic Hero's company Fight 10, and as the captain(s) would be in that company they would also get it like the troops do in the normal Fight. But of course it doesn't transfer so to heroes standing next to him in same company. As a corollary this means IF: 1. A formation is charged by a terrifying creature 2. The formation fails it's Terror Test and so has Fight 0. 3. An Epic hero calls Epic Strike and raises his (and in the fight also the company) to Fight 10. 4. The Creature calls a Heroic duel on a captain or other hero in that company (not the one calling Epic Strike)... that hero would still have Fight 0. (doesn't look good for the non-Epic Strike calling Hero, everyone else is fine...) |
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| Author: | Hashut's Blessing [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
Another method is to use heroic monsters to tie it up. I kept a Mumak from destroying my army by holding it up repeatedly with a King's Champion (Heroic Charge to avoid it getting the charge and moving so a Trample would cause it to hit terrain) - a single formation, so he only takes D3 hits, which is 1 roll on the table tops! |
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| Author: | ForgottenLore [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
daersalon wrote: As a corollary this means IF: 1. A formation is charged by a terrifying creature 2. The formation fails it's Terror Test and so has Fight 0. 3. An Epic hero calls Epic Strike and raises his (and in the fight also the company) to Fight 10. 4. The Creature calls a Heroic duel on a captain or other hero in that company (not the one calling Epic Strike)... that hero would still have Fight 0. (doesn't look good for the non-Epic Strike calling Hero, everyone else is fine...) Just an off topic point of timing, Epic Strike doesn't get called until the hero is about to fight (either in a duel or the combat proper) so if no one called a duel vs the Epic Strike hero first then there is no opportunity for him to call ES before the regular combat begins. Doesn't really change the outcome of what you were talking about, but there is too much confusion on the timing of epic actions as is. As for the dragon, dueling doesn't seem particularly effective to me since he has such a high native fight, unless you do some shenanigans first to lower his fight, like getting the dragon to fail a terror test which would require some work to pull off reliably. |
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| Author: | Xelee [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
Yes quite, the cheapness that is Gandalf. |
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| Author: | daersalon [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
It's not about timing as a Hero declares an Epic Strike before he fights. That's any time before the main fight is rolled for, not "immediately before". The FAQ even points out that Epic Strike only returns Strike to 10 if its called after another effect which might have reduced it to zero (i.e. there is no fixed point it must be called). It's possible to announce duels then ES, or announce ES then announce duels. So he would get ample opportunity to call ES. However, it still doesnt help those other heroes next to him in duels, and yeah maybe there are better ways to polish off a dragon hmmmmmmm.... |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
Xelee wrote: Yes quite, the cheapness that is Gandalf. but at least there aren't NINE of him...
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| Author: | dolpin tamroth [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
Hashut's Blessing wrote: It depends what army you use and what allies you have. If you're a good player, it's made a lot easier by having Legolas hit it with Crippling Shot and you can always use and Epic Shot after that to cause an instant D6 rolls on the table. I think that this could be a good method, if you have Legolas, Thranduil and Haldir in the same company, you can do first a Crippling Shot with Legolas and reduce the Resilience by 1, then do an Epic Shot with the three elfs, then you have 3D6 opportunities to roll the dices in the Extremely Hard to Kill table. On the other hand, to have the three elfs in the same company is only ... 400 points. What do you think? |
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| Author: | ForgottenLore [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
daersalon wrote: It's not about timing as a Hero declares an Epic Strike before he fights. That's any time before the main fight is rolled for, not "immediately before". There are several reason why I think you are wrong. Quote: Epic actions do not always have to be declared at the start of the phase, but are called when the Hero's formation is due to act. That rule, combined with the fact that virtually all epic actions (only epic shot doesn't, I think) specify either start of phase or a specific action it is called before tells me that Epic actions are not called whenever the player feels like it, but at a specific time, "when the Hero's formation is due to..." whichever act the Epic Action specifies. Epic Strike says it is called before the Hero fights so, when applied to the rule I just quoted you get "Epic Strike is called when the Hero is due to fight", not "Whenever you want to call it" Second, there is a lot of confusion about how Epic actions work and what takes priority over what and how to resolve conflicts between actions. Doing it this way, as the rules specify, results in ALL of those questions being answered. This way simply works, it makes sense, and every other way doesn't. Third, Epic Shot DOES specify that it can be called whenever during the phase in question, making it the exception that proves the rule. If E-Shot requires text saying it can be called anytime then everything else is being called at a specified time. Quote: The FAQ even points out that Epic Strike only returns Strike to 10 if its called after another effect which might have reduced it to zero (i.e. there is no fixed point it must be called I notice that you conveniently failed to notice the rest of that FAQ entry... WotR FAQ wrote: ...and I am hard pressed to think of an effect that could begin after Epic Strike has been declared. That makes it pretty clear that effects occur at certain times, not willy-nilly. And this is really off topic now. If you (or someone else) wishes to continue the discussion, I recommend you create a new topic for that purpose. |
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| Author: | daersalon [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How to kill a dragon? |
ForgottenLore wrote: There are several reason why I think you are wrong. Similarly there are several reasons why I think you are wrong Quote: Epic actions do not always have to be declared at the start of the phase, but are called when the Hero's formation is due to act. This doesn't indicate any order sequence beyond the fact you only declare things like duels or Epic Channelling when you decide to act with a formation. So any duels, strikes etc aren't declared at the start of the phase only when you focus on a formation during a phase. Beyond that there is no hard and fast rule besides what is in the text of the rule. The Epic Strike rule says simply "before he fights". In fact the other Epic actions on p69 predominately do not specify a specific time, all simply say before the formation fights or "before his formation charges" (the only exception beng Epic Challenge which is at the start of a move). It seems epic actions are intended to be called as needed and not as a particular sequence in resolution, apart from a few specifically worded examples.Therefore you can call Epic Strike "willy nilly" as you term it any time between the formation getting the 'focus' as it were and the Hero actually fighting (duel or regular combat). e.g. 1. Formation is to have it's own fight resolved: Player A calls heroic Duel and then Epic Strike. The Duel is resolved with the Fight 10 then the fight itself. This is the typical use. but this is fine too: e.g. 2. Formation is to have it's own fight resolved: Player A calls Epic Strike with an Epic Hero, and then Heroic duel with a captain against an enemy captain. (the ES doesnt help the captain of course) and a step further: e.g. 3. Formation is to have it's own fight resolved: Player A calls Epic Strike with an Epic Hero, and then Heroic duel with a captain against an enemy captain, then decides to have the epic hero with ES active call a heroic duel against another enemy Epic Hero. ForgottenLore wrote: Second, there is a lot of confusion about how Epic actions work and what takes priority over what and how to resolve conflicts between actions. If there are two actions at the same time which conflict or affect each other potentially there is a roll off. I don't think it needs specifying to the nth degree or is particularly confusing. ForgottenLore wrote: Third, Epic Shot DOES specify that it can be called whenever during the phase in question, making it the exception that proves the rule. If E-Shot requires text saying it can be called anytime then everything else is being called at a specified time. Not at all. It means it isn't called necessarily BEFORE the formation acts like most of the other Epic Actions on that page. In this case the formation can shoot then the Hero can declare an Epic Shot, possibly to polish off an almost depleted formation. Epic Strike et al are needed before Fight resolution there is still no indication that it must be the last thing before the dice are rolled. ForgottenLore wrote: I notice that you conveniently failed to notice the rest of that FAQ entry... WotR FAQ wrote: ...and I am hard pressed to think of an effect that could begin after Epic Strike has been declared. Yes, and read the whole thing the subject is 'effect'.. i.e an effect that changes Fight value. There is no effect that changes Fight value after an Epic Strike is called, besides Chill Miasma. You can easily call Epic Strike then Epic Defence. ForgottenLore wrote: And this is really off topic now. If you (or someone else) wishes to continue the discussion, I recommend you create a new topic for that purpose. I agree I have answered these points, if you still want to pick them apart further feel free to. This is in essence rather arcane and makes no difference to any game flow. |
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