Orc morannon > Uruk hai?
Orc tracker = Uruk hai?
Khamul and Betrayer higher than the Witch king !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(THat especially is killing me....)
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| Point Rebalancing Project http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=20837 |
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| Author: | Slythar [ Tue May 24, 2011 1:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Point Rebalancing Project |
I've been thinking about this for awhile and I finally have competed a rough estimate of point values for each unit. I've put a value on every piece of wargear, special rules, attributes etc.,. and come up with a number that at first glance looks balanced. I've yet to try any of it using standard rules of course but after much work I wanted to post some of it. I have the formula's if anyone is interested. I'll start with Mordor since its the most unbalanced. Orcs 16 Orcs w/ Shields 23 Orcs w/ Bows 20 Orcs w/2-H 22 Morannon Orcs 29 Morannon Orc w/Shields 36 Orc Trackers 28 Warg Riders 25 Warg Riders w/Shields 28 Warg Riders w/Bows 26 Uruk-Hai 28 Uruk-Hai w/2-H 34 Black Numenorean 37 Morgul Knights 42 Morgul Stalker 34 Black Guard of Barad-Dur 49 War Catapult - Standard (No formula) Siege Bow Standard (No formula) Tower Guard 28 w/2-H 34 Legendary Cost 128 Morgul Rats 16 w/Shields 23 w/Bows 20 w/2-H 22 Legendary Cost 95 Grishnakh's Trackers 30 Legendary Cost 66 Castellans of Dol Guldur 107 Twilight Ringwraiths 129 *WIP* The Nine are Abroad 527 Mordor Troll 65 Mordor Troll Drummer 75 Mordor Troll Chieftain 110 Shelob 104 The Necromancer 353 Sauron 504 *WIP* Winged Nazgul, works out about the same as what an Epic Hero is worth +30 points. The Necromancer 225 Sauron 351 The Witch King 212 Khamul The Easterling 242 The Undying 192 The Tainted 182 The Dark Marshal 182 The Shadow Lord 182 The Dwimmerlaik 192 The Betrayer 232 The Knight of Umbar 192 The Mouth of Sauron 119 Kardush 76 Gollum Standard (No formula) |
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| Author: | Ultragreek [ Tue May 24, 2011 4:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Orc morannon > Uruk hai? Orc tracker = Uruk hai? Khamul and Betrayer higher than the Witch king !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (THat especially is killing me....)
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| Author: | SilverHeimdall [ Tue May 24, 2011 5:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Are you saying that Witch King is undercosted or that Khamul's overpowered abiliity is overcosted in this 'rebalancing project'? |
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| Author: | Slythar [ Tue May 24, 2011 6:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Orc morannon > Uruk hai? In combat the Morannon should win. Looks good. Orc tracker = Uruk hai? I priced ambushers pretty low but the Uruk still has a higher Fight,Strength,Defense and Courage. I have Ambushers priced at 5 pts. so maybe I could go higher. I don't really see that much use for Ambushers. Khamul and Betrayer higher than the Witch king. Themewise it shouldn't be but I would argue they will still be taken over the Witchking. The WK power is not very useful. I priced Shadow of Terror at 5 pts. where as Essence Leech at 80 pts. I went high on Essence Leech but I would argue that it doesn't necessary take him out of the picture when choosing an army. Khamul and the Betrayer can be built into in an army with those qualities in mind in reflecting hits or rerolling misses. Thanks for the input guys! Maybe I'll roll a faction every week. The input is invaluable. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Tue May 24, 2011 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Interesting so far. I like the new points on the various Trolls (Troll Chief may be worth 125). They are just not as worth it now considering the fragility of H2K, though if supporting I have found them very effective. But for that same reason I'd suggest your point increase on the Necromancer is going the wrong direction. He's only H2K and even with D8/R2 the H2K just gives no staying power. I have taken out Glorfindel ( H2K - D7/R2 ) without much problem in two games. Two turns of combat at best. I'd argue that with D7 or D8 and R2 a VH2K model would be worth 300+ points but it's just not that hard to get one or two hits in and that's often all that's needed. |
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| Author: | Slythar [ Tue May 24, 2011 4:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
My problem with Sauron and The Necromancer is my spell multiplier which is across the board. I'll list my formula. Its a multiplier so Spell Level * spell list * spell List * spell list. Spells Level 1 - 20 Level 2 - 30 Level 3 - 35 Level 4-5 - 40 Level 6-8 - 45 Level 9-10 - 50 Darkness x2.2 Ruin x1.8 Dismay x1.5 Wilderness x1.4 Command x1.1 Without the spell multiplier The Necromancer is 115 pts. so maybe its too high in some areas. I'll reduce level 4 to 10 to 35 points, its pretty rare you get to use a spell at those masteries anyways. So now I'm down to 323. I'll take Ruin down to 1.5 and Darkness down to 2. So now I'm at this with Mordor Casters. The Necromancer 262 Sauron 395 The Witch King 212 Khamul The Easterling 242 The Undying 192 The Tainted 182 The Dark Marshal 182 The Shadow Lord 182 The Dwimmerlaik 192 The Betrayer 232 The Knight of Umbar 192 The Mouth of Sauron 119 Kardush 76 A little better although I'm concerned Kardush is too cheap. He would be easy to kill though. He would be the cheapest caster. I would have to raise Ruin or level cost to get him higher. I don't know, might be fine. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Tue May 24, 2011 6:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Instead of adjusting the spells down, what about a modifier based on how hard the model is to kill? Duels against an Epic or a Hero in a Legendary work pretty much the same (risk wise) as a Duel against a "monster" Hero, so that's not really a factor. But Epics and Heroes in a Legendary Formation are protected to a degree from their Formation itself while Monster-style ( Glorfindel, Necromancer, Shelob, etc. ) are not. If you put Galadriel in a a 4coy large formation of Galadrhim Guard she's going to be hard to damage in normal combat...you need to wipe out 30 models ( deal 30 hits ) before the Formation goes away and she's dead. But if you face an H2K Formation you normally only need to get 2-3 rolls on the chart to score a 6. As I posted earlier, I nailed Glorfiendel ( D7/R2 ) in one turn of melee with some Morannon Orcs in one game, and took him out in the second turn of melee in another. My Wood Elves have even managed to take down a Mordor Troll ( D7/R2 ) with concentrated bow fire from two companies in one turn. If someone happens to have Legolas around to make them an R1 instead then it's even less of an issue. One Formation of such archers could easily roll 30 dice, expect 18-20 hits. I don't have the time to math out all the *(1/6) but it's pretty reasonable to say you're going to score some 6's out of those 20, and not too hard to have a 4+ on the second roll. Even after R2 is taken into account 1-2 rolls on the H2K table from a volley of archers is reasonable and this means one to two turns against such a Formation and your 300+ point Mastery 5 model is gone, possibly before getting off more than one turn of spells. Winged Nazgul are not taken often for the same reason (unless you have enough for the Battle Host). So if you had a modifier of -XX% if a VH2K model (WK on FB) and -YY% for an H2K model ( Necromancer, Nazgul on FB ) it may turn the Necromancer down to about 225 - 250 due to his vulnerability. That would be a value I'd be more inclined to play and I don't think he would be overpowering. |
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| Author: | Slythar [ Tue May 24, 2011 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
I do have a modifier for Hard to Kill, Very Hard to Kill and Extremely Hard to Kill thats applied to the unit total. Seems the trolls are good where they are. I gave Hard to Kill one because it averages 6 hits to kill so its like a company and so on for VHTK and RHTK. Hard to Kill 1 Very Hard to Kill 1.2 Ridiculious HTK 2 Maybe a further modifier for monster casters so I could add a 0.75 modifier for that. That seems reasonable just for spells. I made a similar statline for Might where monsters were costed 5 pts per might (since they can be dueled right) vs. 20 points per might for hero's. It will be across the board. Here's the results. The Necromancer 225 Sauron 351 |
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| Author: | Ultragreek [ Tue May 24, 2011 7:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
We are pretty lucky you wasn't a creator of WOTR....   
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| Author: | Slythar [ Mon May 30, 2011 5:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Onto the next group Isengard Uruk-Hai w/Pikes 35 Uruk-Hai w/ Shields 38 Uruk-Hai w/Crossbows 52 Uruk-Hai Scouts 29 Uruk-Hai Scouts w/Shields 36 Uruk-Hai Scouts w/Bows 33 Orcs 16 Orcs w/Shields 23 Orcs w/Bows 19 Orcs w/2-H 22 Uruk-Hai Sappers 36 Feral Uruk-Hai 42 Warg Riders 25 Warg Riders w/Shields 28 Warg Riders w/Bows 26 Dundlendings w/2-H 32 Dundlendings w/Shields 33 Dundlendings w/Bows 30 Wild Men of Dunland 26 Uruk-Hai Berserkers 98 Sharkey's Ruffians 15 Isengard Troll 69 Isengard Troll Captain 96 Dundlending Horsemen 24 Assault Ballista No Formula Ugluk's Raiders 36 Ugluk 78 Vrashku's Talons 52 Vrashku 76 Sharku's Hunters 27 Sharku's Hunters w/Shields 30 Sharku's Hunters w/Bows 28 Sharku 71 Mauhur's Marauders 42 Mauhur 75 Thrydan Wolfsbane 100 Saruman 227 Lurtz 170 Grima Wormtongue No formula |
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| Author: | BlackMist [ Mon May 30, 2011 1:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Wow, seriously? The good thing about WotR is that you can remember the points costs of every company in your army pretty much after the 1st or 2nd game. With this points system you'd be looking at the rulebook nonstop when writing the list and you'd be needing a calculator with you, while at the moment you can just make a list in your head 5 minutes before the game. You don't want to extend the armybuilding time in a game where already tons of people are complaining that it takes hours to set up and then to play. At least round it all up to 5s and 10s. |
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| Author: | Killerkatanas [ Mon May 30, 2011 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Well I appreciate your hard work. The points are not balanced in the book, and I would like to see more of that. I play Isengard a lot, and the price of the crossbows--does that take into account that you cannot fire and move? From my games, the only real good way to use them is to have two units of them and leepfrog them, otherwise they are not very effective, and it is difficult to get a shot off unless you are defending. Brian |
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| Author: | Slythar [ Mon May 30, 2011 10:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Quote: Wow, seriously? I know, I know. I agree completely about making it easy to count. Initially I was going to make the points higher but I didn't want to think too much when converting the numbers to multiples of 5 so I left it just as a reference point. Honestly I hardly ever play house rules since I do like to play the game as it is, especially since I play about once every two weeks. If someone wants to take these numbers as a starting point for their own points system that would be great too. Quote: price of the crossbows No I didn't factor that in, just the raw strength. Ranged- Once range is factored into the cost, the shoot bonus adds 1pt per bonus if there is a bonus at all otherwise its ignored. Shortbow 2pts Bow 3pts Longbow 4pts Blowpipes 1pts Thrown 3pts Crossbow 20pts Horsebow 1pt Horsethrown 1pt Other archer units to compare Wood Elves w/Longbows 40 Archers of Minas Tirith 29 Citadel G with Longbows 37 Sharkey's Ruffians 15 Goblins with Shortbows 24 |
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| Author: | Killerkatanas [ Tue May 31, 2011 12:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
The range of the longbow, and the fact that they can move and shoot, is a huge advantage that crossbows do not have. That 40-point Elf longbow is going to be able to move half and fire at a range that is greater than the crossbow's. Furthermore, a good player will stay just out of the crossbow's range with their longbows and shoot, meaning that the crossbows have to advance (and thus no shot). Brian |
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| Author: | Slythar [ Tue May 31, 2011 1:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
The point range of a crossbow is up for discussion for sure since only two units use it. I could make it more linear and have bows/lb/cb at 3/6/12 points. So it would be Uruk-Hai w/Crossbows 44 Wood Elves w/Longbows 42 High Elves w/Longbows 47 CG with Longbows 39 Archers of Minas Tirith 29 Sharkey's Ruffians 15 Goblins with Shortbows 24 Looks more even. Crossbows even with shorter range should still cost twice that of a longbow in regards to equipment. Longbows>Crossbows one on one but Crossbows vs. Infantry/Monsters/Cavalry > Longbows vs Infantry/Monsters/Cavalry. In terms of 'Most Deadliest Warrior'... the Edge goes to the Uruk-Hai Crossbow. |
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| Author: | Hashut's Blessing [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
If the numbers put you off because of complexity, once the numbers are all sorted (for the balancing), multiply everything by 5 and the numbers are suddenly easier again. |
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| Author: | Slythar [ Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project, Moria |
Enough of Isengard, simple enough. Lets move on to Moria. Goblins 22 Goblins with Shields 29 Goblins with Shortbows 24 Wargs 24 Giant Spiders 35 Prowlers 35 Bat Swarm 33 Spider Broodlings 30 Gundabad Blackshields 41 Spider Queen 63 Cave Troll 52 Stone Giant 179 Cave Drake 92 Dragon 340 Dragon with Magic 431 Balrog 321 Durburz 146 Druzhag 226 |
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| Author: | Slythar [ Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project-Fallen Realms |
FALLEN REALMS Haradrim 25 Haradrim with Bows 29 Haradrim Raider 29 Haradrim Raider with Bow 31 Serpant Guard 27 Serpent Rider 31 Serpent Rider with Bow 33 Corsair 16 Corsair with Shield 23 Corsair with Bow 20 Khandish with 2-H 31 Khandish with Bow 29 Khandish Raider 25 Easterling 33 Easterling with Pike 36 Easterling with Bow 30 Easterling Kataphrakt 32 Watchers 32 Watchers with Bows 37 Half Trolls 69 Half Trolls with 2-H 78 Mahud 27 Mahud with Blowpipes 30 Mahud Raider 21 Mahud Raider with Blowpipes 24 Corsair Arbalesters 41 Black Numenoreans 37 Morgul Knights 44 Abrakhan Guard 25 ----------Legendary Cost 91 Khandish Charioteer 45 Khandish King 71 Mumak 207 Suladan 143 Dalamyr 117 Amdur 190 Queen Beruthiel 113 |
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| Author: | Hilbert [ Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
Druzhag costs more than Mumak ... I think you don;t know how good mumak is... |
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| Author: | Slythar [ Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Point Rebalancing Project |
My RHTK ratio is too low I think. I'll bump that up. Also I costed Druzag's ability to summon creatures at 3c of Wargs. Maybe thats too high since he might not always summon. The most mighty of the RHTK monsters is the Dragon with Magic. Should I cap him to 500 points? Is he worth 500 points you think? Here is the adjusted values. Stone Giant 203 Dragon 385 Dragon with Magic 487 Balrog 362 Mumak 234 Druzhag 184 |
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