The One Ring
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Possible tournament guidelines.
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Author:  Xelee [ Wed May 18, 2011 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Possible tournament guidelines.
I've been reflecting a bit on what makes a good game of WOTR, recently. I decided that there might be other ways than houserules (see here:http://roughwotr.blogspot.com/2010/12/houserules-after-extensive-feedback.html), so have drafted up a set of guidelines that I might use, were I to run an event. Reasoned feedback is welcome.

WOTR 1000 pt draft competition rules.
Rules: 'Will of iron' works on a 3+
Lists: There is a list of all the Epic heroes in the game, below. Your army may only contain one hero from that list. Though you may take as many other heroes or legendary formations as points permit. You may not take an allied Epic Hero, though Good lists may use Epic Heroes from the Forgotten Kingdoms list ('The Shadow of the Nazgul' fulfils the same role for Evil). If you take an Epic Hero from the list, you may not also take a monster with the 'extremely hard to kill' rule. Further, you may only ever take one monster with that rule. The sole exception to this is the Misty Mountains list, which may take a Stone Giant with Durbuurz. Battlehosts may be fielded but the restrictions on Epic Heros remains. The sole exception to this are Battlehosts which require more than one Epic Hero from the restricted list, in that case they may take the minimum necessary. Since the restrictions on Epic heroes remain in place, you may not take one restricted hero in the battlehost and another for the rest of the army.

Good

Gondor:
Restricted: Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Imrahil, Isildur
Not Restricted: Peregrin, Elendil

Rohan
Restricted: Eomer, Eorl
Not Restricted: Deorwine, Eowyn, Erkenbrand, Theoden, Theodred

Elven Kingdoms
Restricted:
Galadriel (Lady of Lothlorien), Thranduil, Haldir
Not restricted: Celeborn, Galadriel (Potectress of Lothlorien), Elrond, Legolas, Cirdan, Gil-Galad, Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir

The Dwarf Holds
Restricted: Balin, Dain, Gimli
Not Restricted: Floi

Forgotten Kingdoms(may be allies for any Good list)
Restricted: Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, Radagast the Brown
Not Restricted: Gandalf the White

Evil

Mordor
Restricted: Ringwraith, Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog, Kardush
Not Restricted: Gollum

The Fortress of Isengard
Restricted: Thrydan, Saruman
Not restricted: Grima Wormtongue, Lurtz

Misty Mountains
Restricted: Stone Giant (though may be taken with Durburz), Dragon, Balrog, Durburz (though may be taken with Stone Giant), Druzhag.
Not restricted: The combination of Durburz and Stone Giant.
Note a Moria army may treat EITHER the Dragon OR the Balrog as a Legendary formation for the purposes of army construction. Other restriction remain in effect - these are still monsters with the 'extremely hard to kill' table, and this means they may not be taken with other restricted heroes.

Fallen Realms
Restricted: Ringwraiths (Shadow of the Nazgul), War Mumak, Suladan, Queen Beruthiel
Not Restricted: Dalamyr, Amdur

Angmar
Restricted: Ringwraiths (Shadow of the Nazgul)

I would be interested in any feedback on which hero goes where. I think I've been fair, and all Epics should be on one or the other list, so let me know if I've missed any!
Cheers
Author:  smaul [ Wed May 18, 2011 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
as per my post on warseer:

Frankly I think a tournament with restrictions like this are a fun challenge.

I like to play the game as is, but as a player I like to have the challenge of coming up with something a little different as per the rules of the tournament.
Author:  Gildor Inglorion [ Wed May 18, 2011 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
I prefer your house rules, but this is an interesting approach. My only two concerns are that (while restricting powergaming) these guidelines would also prevent some themed armies (ie Faramir + Boromir), though I suppose the option of taking heroes such as these in a Battlehost remains. There are still going to be inherent imbalances in the game though (obviously) - if you take Haldir as your one Epic Hero choice and your opponent takes Khamul...

Have you seen this before? I stumbled across it on TLA: http://www.thelastalliance.com/viewtopi ... =10&t=3240

It follows the same general principle, while giving players a little more leeway when choosing heroes and putting additional restrictions on magic.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed May 18, 2011 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
I think it's a good start and will mitigate a lot of the concerns that players have and should not have any real impact on the "fun" in any negative way.

One area you may want to clarify (I may not be saying this clearly myself): If a Battlehost already requires you to have one or more Epics from the Restricted List you cannot select any more Restricted models. Sad as it may seem I can see someone, through ignorance, confusion of malice, attempting to bring a Restricted Epic Hero as well as a Battlehost that also includes a Restricted Epic Hero.

Otherwise I think it may just need some tuning on the Restricted List. For example having Lurtz and Haldir on it. I've played armies using Haldir before and he's usually a secondary Epic for me at best, especially seeing Legoals and Galadriel (Protectress) on the non-Restricted list. Likewwise, I've only faced Isengard with Lurtz and Saruman together and so far they haven't proven that much of an issue in the same army (nothing like a couple Nazgul can be). I agree with Saruman on the list due to magic but I don't think Lurtz is too over the top. This may just be personal experience though. I think any player that picks one of these two as their only Restricted Epic is going to be at a disadvantage to a player that takes a Spell Caster from the Restricted list and then one or two combat oriented Epics from the open lists.

Please let us know how it goes and any feedback your players give when it's done. It does look like a very basic way to limit some areas of abuse (both Good and Evil armies) for an event.
Author:  smaul [ Wed May 18, 2011 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
This is the danger of trying to "balance" a game one sees as unbalanced

it creates more issues usually

again, most of you who know me know I'm not a house rules guy, but restricted tournaments that changes the criteria from time to time can be fun.

Not sure Id be in favor for me personally of this being every game played.

to each his own though.
Author:  Xelee [ Wed May 18, 2011 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
Thanks guys.

Gildor Inglorion, I prefer them too and would always use them when I could. I just wanted something more basic for a small event. The goal is to avoid participants being left with a bad taste in their mouth (though I don't think any would verbalise it) after taking along a reasonable list for their faction and hitting some of the things that can be done. I've seen those other guidelines and I don't think they do enough - I can think of a number of problematic things, which would be permitted. Equally, this list is geared to 1000 points and some other battlehosts would have to be looked at above this point. I subscribe to the interpretation that Battlehosts does not allow other heroes to be put in them during play. I've attempted to ensure that no one unit is prevented outright. Fluff combinations... Boromir and Faramir are at the same battle but command different wings! :)

In an event, any player with just Khamul will have to contend with the prospect of keeping him alive vs actual duelling heroes, since Gothmog can't guard his back, and stacked Darkness spells aren't there to help him either.

Beowulf03809, I will add that extra line. Haldir is on there not so much because he is a 'power' hero on his own but because the Elves stand out in having so many unrestricted heroes. He is pretty useful for his points, now that the restricted list suddenly makes Epic Strike - his one real lack - (hence the restriction on Amdur, Imrahil, and Lurtz) quite scarce. It is not so much the individual hero itself, but that anything on the list can be used to 'stack up' certain abilities and I am trying to keep the playing field level. I don't think Imrahil is that big a deal either but him plus another Gondor ES brawler is a real headache for others who will liklely be relying a little more on captains/legendaries.

However, I'll run those 'borderline' heroes (Haldir, Imrahil, Amdur, Lurtz) past others. Do you think there are other borderline heroes? Also, in light of the fact that terror can drop it, I've left of the 200ish point fight 10 heroes - Protectress Galadriel and Elendil, do you think they should be restricted (given the fact they are unlikely to fail terror)?

Smaul, this list is for events only, in the spirit of 'tournament lists'/'tournament rules', which I see for many games out there. I think it would be a terrible idea for other forms of game. An Earthquake kinda interfered with the last event I tried to run but I saw lists come in to me that were a perfectly reasonable combo of units, command upgrades and all. Other lists were command upgrades free and things like the Morranans + Wraiths + Gothmog (I think that must be the suggested starter list in the rulebook?) or Isengard xbows + sheilds + Thrydan, Druzhag, Saruman. I didn't get one with Betrayer + Khamul + gothmog + Morranans + Corsair Arbalests (with the Betrayer in them, protected by Gothmog), but I could have. The two types of list were almost playing a different game.
Author:  Rich1982 [ Wed May 18, 2011 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
Hi, just thought I'd pick up on the restriction of no monsters allowed with the "extremely hard to kill" rule if you take an Epic from the same list.

A Misty Mountain force has to take Durburz or Druzhag to be a legal army, which means that a Dragon or the Balrog would not ever be allowed under these rules. Was your intention to "ban" these two heavy hitters or are your rules saying that a Dragon/Balrog can lead a Misty Mountains army (as if it was a Legendary formation)?

How about simply limiting each army to just one monster with the "extremely hard to kill" rule, regardless of Epics taken? I don't think the allowance of one Dragon/Balrog alongside Durburz/Druzhag is too much given they will not have any other Epics.

I like what you are trying to do here, as I've been getting back into WOTR I've played a few 1k games recently with my Misty Mountains army and I must admit the games without the allied Ringwraiths were much more fun than the ones with a couple allied in. WOTR is a great game, especially if both sides have a decent chance of victory.

:yay:
Author:  Xelee [ Thu May 19, 2011 3:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
Hi Rich1982, the second option. You are right, this is absolutely not clear in how I have worded that. The Misty Mountains list is pretty frustrating in terms of this exercise, since it has no legendaries!

What do others think of the idea to 'lighten up' and allow 1 Restricted Epic + 1 Extremely hard to kill for either Just Misty Mountains or Any Evil list (though if someone argues that Khamul is joining the Mumak, I may throw the whole model at him!)?
Author:  daersalon [ Tue May 24, 2011 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
Playing Isengard I would feel a little aggrieved at taking only 1 epic. Grima is not *really* worth his points as a debuff. While Isengard is alwasy epic light along with isty mountains (another army i play/support) it would be frustrating to face elf legions stuffed with allowed epics. Lurtz may be 175 points but i take alwasy saruman and thryden... never lurtz and grima for 1000 points... saruman because of that magic.. thryden because a secondary hero is useful, he has now great abilities besides a couple of might points really, unless you face Rohan. Maybe have Lurtz/saruman restricted, Grima/Thryden unrestricted. I doubt really grima gets much game time for 1000 point battles or less
Author:  daersalon [ Tue May 24, 2011 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
Also note, The Balrog could lead an army by itself. Any monster with might is treated as a hero. An army leader can be a epic, a hero in a legendary or a monster such as Sauton or Shelob (Specifically Quoted on page 85). Sauron has Epic actions so that was never in doubt. Shelob doesn't but still she has might therefore can lead the army. So then could a Troll Chieftan A Dragon. The determining factor is a model with Might, not a humanoid epic hero.
Author:  Xelee [ Tue May 24, 2011 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
Hi daersalon,

Thanks for the feedback - I did run this by the local Isengard player and he wasn't himslef too agrieved. However, that is a couple of your that have suggested issues that migth be resolved by shifting Lurtz (and Amdur, if not Imrahil?) out of the restricted category. Grima is alread unrestricted. Thrydan would be on most people's restricted lists - in fact he is one of those heroes that tends to get allied in widely.

I'll just use this platform to reiterate that I find Elves to be a horrible army (too expensive, basically) and feel sorry for anyone using them :lol: They do it tough even with houserules to boost their shooting, let alone the relatively minor boost they get here through having more Epic choice.

Still, I think you've convinced me to revisit Lurtz et al.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Tue May 24, 2011 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
daersalon wrote:
An army leader can be a epic, a hero in a legendary or a monster such as Sauton or Shelob (Specifically Quoted on page 85).

The determining factor is a model with Might, not a humanoid epic hero.


Rulebook, p85 wrote:
There are two kinds of formations from which you can choose your leader. The first kind are epic heroes.

The second group from which your leader can be selected are the legendary formations.

A few legendary formations are not really formations at all but...are often massive monsters, such as Shelob or Sauron

Between its Epic Heroes and Legendary formations, each faction's army list offers plenty of choices for your leader.


The rulebook is pretty plain that the only options for leader are Epic Heroes and Legendary formations, heroes in general are not acceptable. Shelob and Sauron are given as examples of Legendary formations that happen to be monsters and I think the text makes that pretty plain. You can't choose a Dragon or a Balrog* as an army leader because they are neither of the "two kinds of formations from which you can choose your leader", they are rare options. Personally, I think the Balrog should have been made a legendary choice. by the time of WotR there was only one of them. I fully expect there to be a legendary dragon, Smaug, once the Hobbit films are released.

*Unless you choose the misty mountain battlehost that specifically allows a Balrog as leader.

Finally, on the subject of the misty mountain army and extremely hard to kill, your guidelines are for specifically a 1000 point game, yes? If that is the case I don't see a problem preventing the Dragon and Balrog from being taken. Half your points in a single model is taking things too far I think. Then again, a 1000 point army that included a dragon would probably not be that hard to beat.
Author:  Xelee [ Wed May 25, 2011 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
Hi Forgottenlore - yes I see this as 1000pt specific but don't want to rule out any one model. I tend to agree with you that Balrogs (and Dragons, for that matter) could potentially be seen as Legendary and that might be a good way to handle it.

Text to the effect of:
Restricted: Stone Giant (though may be taken with Durburz), Dragon, Balrog, Durburz (though may be taken with Stone Giant), Druzhag.
Not restricted: The combination of Durburz and Stone Giant.
Note a Moria army may treat EITHER the Dragon OR the Balrog as a Legendary formation for the purposes of army construction. Other restriction remain in effect - these are still monsters with the 'extremely hard to kill' table, and this means they may not be taken with other restricted heroes.

Slightly more complicated than I wanted - but allows a Moria player to have anything in the list, just not combo these things together.
Author:  Xelee [ Fri May 27, 2011 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
Hi Guys, I was wondering if any of you had some thoughts on:

Gondor: Does Imrahil belong in the 'restricted' section, or should he be unrestricted? (bear in mind, if he is unrestricted then him plus Faramir or Gandalf is a definite possiblity). I am leaning toward moving Imrahil to unrestricted but making Elendil restricted.

Fallen Realms: I have made Amdur unrestricted, can you think of any (Fallen Realms only, there are no allied heroes) combos that might pose an issue?

Elves: I am considering making the Twins restricted, but allowing Elven players to have both (I am thinking of Galadriel + Twins here). Do you think they are better without any restriction at all? I am thinking that Protectress Galadriel should be restricted, since on reflection she is high-fight, causes terror, and Epic Strike heroes suddenly became a lot more scarce.

Angmar: I am leaning toward making the Witch-King unrestricted. He is a Darkness caster but costs a lot for a resiliance 2 hero, which means he has a high chance of being killed (in reality, fleeing the battle).

I see all of these as borderline cases, so would apprecciate other perspectives on them.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri May 27, 2011 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Possible tournament guidelines.
Xelee wrote:
Fallen Realms: I have made Amdur unrestricted, can you think of any (Fallen Realms only, there are no allied heroes) combos that might pose an issue?

This one might be a tough choice. As unrestricted you could have him and a Nazgul together. Not too critical but something to consider.

Xelee wrote:
Elves: I am considering making the Twins restricted, but allowing Elven players to have both (I am thinking of Galadriel + Twins here). Do you think they are better without any restriction at all? I am thinking that Protectress Galadriel should be restricted, since on reflection she is high-fight, causes terror, and Epic Strike heroes suddenly became a lot more scarce.

I agree on both of these. The Twins, restricted but able to be purchased together, will help. They have always been one of the best bargains in each game system. And I think Protectress Galadriel (or any other F10 model) should be restricted as well in light of the general restriction on ES models. Your guidelines are going to encourage more "lesser" Heroes and generic Captains (which I think WotR sadly lacks in many competitive lists). A model with a natural F10 is going to cut thru any Shamen and many Captains without too much concern. Back that with a restricted model with strong magic or combat powers...

Xelee wrote:
Angmar: I am leaning toward making the Witch-King unrestricted. He is a Darkness caster but costs a lot for a resiliance 2 hero, which means he has a high chance of being killed (in reality, fleeing the battle).

I don't think this will cause a balance issue. His special rule isn't much and he rarely shows up on any lists as is. If he is unrestricted you may get him + another Nazgul in the army but Angmar could use a little encouragement anyway.
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