Yeah...yet another Khamul uglism...
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| Khamul's essence leech http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=20522 |
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| Author: | Stormcrow [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Khamul's essence leech |
Hi, if i were to cast strength from corruption on a formation that contained Khamul could i then use his essence leech to discount/re-apply any suffered hits to another formation? |
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| Author: | lorelorn [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
The ability applies to all hits Khamul's formation suffers, and Strength from Corruption deals D6 hits, so yes. |
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| Author: | Stormcrow [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Thats great thanks for your help. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Yeah...yet another Khamul uglism...
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| Author: | ForgottenLore [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Yeah, they really need to fix Khamul. the casualties from a failed Courage test on the panic table are also listed as "hits". So, "we beat the orcs and they failed their courage test, so some of our guys run away>" |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
I think a LOT of Nazgul errors can be addressed if they just change their Special Rules to effect only their Company, not the whole Formation. |
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| Author: | ForgottenLore [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Yeah. though that doesn't work on some of them. Personally, I would like an option to take generic wraiths. If it was 125 points for a wraith as is, but without any special abilities, and then you could pay an additional cost (depending on the wraith) to make them a specific one, the way the witch king works. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Yeah, I really liked the unnamed Nazgul from SBG that start at a base level and then you have to add points to up their stats. |
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| Author: | Xelee [ Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Forgottenlore, coy based scalebacks work on the worst two/three of the nine. Khamul of course needs a different tweak, given his formation (not coy) takes the hits. Beowulf03809, personally, I think special rules are fun and prefer to scale back their spellcasting a little, and scale back the 'get out of duel free card' as well. This way, the overall package falls back into being reasonable for the 125pts and more of the issues people have with Nazguls get addressed. And Stormcrow, there are good in-setting reasons why you might want to use Khamul. Even without his rules, I can see why he is so attractive to WOTR players. Cheers |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Without his special rule, Khamul is my first and almost only choice for a Nazgul in my force since it's a Dol Guldur army, and serving as lord of that dark tower is, I'm pretty sure, the only time Khamul is mentioned by name in the books which also marks out the only time a Nazgul other than the WK is named. So he's a given for me. I'd rather he had one of the "good but not over the top" special rules because I hate that he is viewed as cheeze by so many (myself included). 
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| Author: | ForgottenLore [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
I'm in the same predicament but kinda on the other side of the coin, 3 of my regular opponents play heavy Easterling theme armies. I can't really complain about their first wraith being Khamul "the Easterling", but it does get tiring constantly facing him. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
At least in Easterling forces he is themed and also they have a pretty high Defense. It's like in my Morannon or Black Guard Formations...they don't take a lot of hits to begin with so he's not bouncing that many back. The killer is if someone throws him in a huge but softer Formation, like 6 Companies of Orcs. You WANT to hit it hard and cause damage, and you CAN, but you will suffer in response. 
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| Author: | WayUnderTheMountain [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Khamul may be a pain to fight against time and time again, but he's actually easier to beat than one may think. I agree with Xelee in that its not the special rule so much as the Mastery 3 and Epic Strike that does people in. With three spells a turn and only 125 points, there is no real equivalent to the Ringwraiths for the Forces of Good as the spellcasters with Mastery Level 3 are a minimum 175 points and are mostly Elves or Istari (who can only be taken as allies). In my WOTR group, we've all agreed to reduce the Mastery Level of Ringwraiths to 2 and Khamul's special rule only negates hits. But in any case, there is a interesting way to take out Khamul's formation. Epic Sacrifice. Roll a D6 for each hit on your formation and on a 3+, it is negated. Khamul only reflects on a 5+ and you get to negate those hits too. You'll probably take fewer casualties then he does (particularly if you use calvary). Also, if you use calvary, an Earth-Shattering Charge (even more likely with some Battle Hosts) can follow up and finish him off in a second fight against a disordered formation with even fewer attacks back. As well, Epic Sacrifice lasts until the end of the Fight Phase so you can still negate hits in the second battle. Sure, you lose the Epic Hero that called it but even that loss can be mitigated. Haldir, Merry, Deorwine and Faramir all have Epic Sacrifice and are 90 points or less, making them worthwhile for eliminating 125 point Ringwraiths. Understandably, Haldir and Faramir might be Battle Host leaders so one may be reluctant to sacrifice them. However, Deorwine is a cheap 50 points and can easily be added as an ally for the sole purpose of dying. 
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| Author: | ForgottenLore [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Beowulf03809 wrote: they don't take a lot of hits to begin with so he's not bouncing that many back. The killer is if someone throws him in a huge but softer Formation, like 6 Companies of Orcs. You WANT to hit it hard and cause damage, and you CAN, but you will suffer in response. My one opponent uses that argument all the time and I just don't buy it. He is going to bounce back the same number of hits over the life of the formation whether those hits are caused in 1 turn or 8. The key is, I think, to be sure you have nothing for the hits to be bounced onto that is worth more than what you are killing. So he has Khamul in 6 companies of 25 point, Def 4 Haradrim, as long as the only place the bounced ones can go is onto my 9 companies of 20 point goblins I'm fine with the exchange. Its when I screw up and he is able to bounce 18 hits onto my Dragon that I get frustrated. |
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| Author: | BlackMist [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
I kinda agree with Beowulf - it's not about whether you will get bounced the same number of hits in 1 or 8 turns, of course you will. It's about instantly killing the formation, hence removing the threat of Khamul in the next turns because he could jump to a fresh formation and potentially cause greater damage the longer he lives. The faster you remove him the better. |
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| Author: | ForgottenLore [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
I think that is me your agree with, not Beowulf? |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
BlackMist nailed one aspect...get rid of the Formation before he can jump to another and the problem is resolved. That's not too easy though when it's a large Formation so a greater overal percentage of the hits may be bounced. But my other point was if I am selecting targets to attack and one Formation I can damage with 4s but the other requires me to get 6s, I would want to attack the weaker one most of the time. I will roll many more hits against it (let's just say 15 hits against the weaker one, only six hits on the tougher one). If Khamul is in one of those and manages to bounce back only 1/3 of the hits that's going to be 5 against the weaker but two against the toughter one. So if the Khamul player was confident he can get him out of the way before the Formation is eliminated then it's better to put it in a weaker Formation. The enemy will do more hits to hit, giving more bounce back opportunities. But it's all a matter of style. Either way Khamul is a PITA to play against and makes me feel 'dirty' when I include him in a force I'm playing in friendly games. |
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| Author: | Xelee [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Beowulf03809 wrote: But it's all a matter of style. Either way Khamul is a PITA to play against and makes me feel 'dirty' when I include him in a force I'm playing in friendly games. What defines playing against Khamul, for me, it not the feeling that he gives too much to the opponent. When you play against him, you really just get on with it. It is that irritating feeling at the end where you have to tackle his unit to finish the enemy's army off and you know bounce-back is going to kill something valuable and net that player some more VPs. At that point, I always feel WOTR is crying out for an army-break mechanic! 
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| Author: | Stormcrow [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Thanks for thoughts guys, Khamul is definatly a regular in my army, his abilities are just too good to not use him. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Khamul's essence leech |
Stormcrow wrote: Thanks for thoughts guys, Khamul is definatly a regular in my army, his abilities are just too good to not use him. I think that's the core of the issue, summarized. In a balanced game, every army list will have it's own stars...those couple models that regularly show up...but overall there should never be one or two models that are pulled into almost every army as an ally. That just shows poor design. |
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