Anyone else think wraiths are useless...?

Matery level of 3, but fluff a focus roll and that's gone. Ive never managed to sunder spirit followed by visions of woe...

One might point. Woopey-do! You'll be holding on to that for epic strike if you have any sense. Anything else and your wraith is toast...

Even the lethal black dart is only 'guaranteed' against the weakest of opponents. You might just be aswell to take orc shamen, MoS or Kardush...
Sticking them a fellbeast doesn't add much either in my experience, they get shot down by Legolas in one go, or get sunder spirited and Visioned of Woe out of there... especially when you have my propensity to roll snake eyes on couarge tests...

Or am I just missing something????

Frustrated Mordor commander!

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

This is fishing, no?

However, recent circumstances have reinforced my faith in humanity so If not, then: 1. the key spells are Pall of Night and Wings of Terror, those two are plenty enough on their own. Wraiths in multiples can really leverage stacked Dismay spells though. 2. Yes, the Fellbeasts are weaker (unless you have the battlehost) but that is hardly a count against the Epic version 3. Only one 'get out of duel free card' is still one 'get out of duel free card'. 4. You haven't even mentioned their special abilities.

I run mine as mastery 2 only, just take two max, and do not use the obvious three, and still consider them an incredible bargain.

But you were fishing, right?

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

Hi Xelee,
Firstly I am most relieved to hear of you on the forum, I had grave concerns for you and all other folk in Christchurch!

Secondly, I am not quite sure what you mean by fishing? I take a rod, line, hooks and bait etc when I go fishing... Not quite sure what kind of fishing you do?

Thirdly, I am just frustrated with wraiths whenever I try to use them in battle. I realise they are not Uber combat monsters, and if we follow Tolkien canon, they were mostly there to spread terror and fear in enemy troops, and perhaps their own!

I just feel somewhat let down by their abilities and stat line in general.

I prefer to theme armies and shy away from Uber monsters even though I have them ready painted to play (Balrog, Dragon both good to go, both Saurons purchased but still in boxes). This leaves Wraiths, Gothmog , MoS as Army leaders - with only Gothmog being potentially useful, but I don't see him being present in every battle Mordor fought... Hence I like to slot Wraiths in where possible as I envisage Mordor armies could have been active in many places and times, most likely led by a wraith...

In my last game against my semi regular Elven opponent at 1000points, i listened to much advise here on forum, I did away with command , banners, captains etc. Maxed out on core troops even taking unpainted stuff!

I formation 9 coys orc shield
1 form 3 coys Morannons
1 form 2 coy orc bow
1 form 3 coy Morgul knights
1 form 3 coy warg riders
1 form 2 coy giant spiders
1 form 3 coy wargs
1 form 1 coy bats
1 form 1 coy morgul stalkers
3 wraiths; khamul, undying (both in orcs shields) dark marshall with morgul knights

I faced
1 form 4 coy wood elf archres
1 form 3 coy galadhrim knights
1 form 2 coy elven cohort
Galadriel, Thranduil, Haldir
1 ent

Field of Swords, fight for the pass. I had high hopes. I thought numbers would crush him.

Wings of terror to get there fast, lots of fast troops, it should be easy.

I got creamed. Terrain didnt help me much, 2 large hedges for whole army to cross twice, slowed me to a crawl. (I didnt mind this too much as I had just enjoyed same terrain in a previous napoleonic game, where the hedges served my british well against french columns)

I just found the whole battle frustrating - we got into quite a discussion about troops in terrain - my spiders went through woods - his ent ambushed from terrain and squashed spiders from the rear, see seperate post "Official questions: WOTR - Area terrain"

I did at least get close this game; black darted Haldir, and killed off his Galadrim cavalry. In a moment of desperation Thranduil was flung into the cavalry but he went down with them. That was my high point, the rest was just destruction of my army until I gave up.

I dont care what people here say about elves, if theres terrain for them to use, and a canny player commanding them to boot, they kick my Ar*e regularly. The wraiths did naff all really. One black dart was the highlight. That burned khamuls point of might, and he was duelled and slain next turn. Not a single hit was bounced from his formation against elves. The undying, when he finally got to within 12" of Galadriel so gets 4 spells now, fluffed the first focus test, so what good did that do. Ok I got a couple of free Will of Iron rolls but even they are only 50/50 luck.

The dark marshall with the morgul knights I dont think achieved anything. When they finally got nearish to being a threat, they were hit with everything but the kitchen sink ( my elven opponent I believe has had a bad experience against them once...!)

Galadriel (and other elven spell casters or allied radagast), is my real tormentor, epic channelling free focus rerolls, and sending might points back to other heroes etc, boy she certainly turns it on..., constant courage drops through spells, means when you finally get to within striking distance you fail terror test and cant charge...

I can go on and on...

BUT, dont get me wrong, I still like the game, better than SBG. It simply looks better. And barring a few quirks I feel need ironing out, plays better. Heck I wouldnt spend most of my spare time painting figures if I didnt like the game!

Maybe I am just stuck in one of those paper scissors rock situations and my orcs are the rock to the elven paper?

regards
Scott

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

You're joking right? They are siiiiickly overpowered for their price. As Xelee said it's not sunder spirit, visions etc, it's Pall of Night, Wings and Strength from Corruption that makes them insane. PoN is for stopping enemy from charging, hence playing on your own terms. Wings obviously for the 24" movement with at the double. SfC for either dealing D6 casualties, causing D6 autohits on monsters (and often killing them outright) or boosting your Morannon (or a 50+ attack Gorgoroth Horde) strength to enormours. 5-foot-wraiths in 1500 points Mordor are the basis of the most powerful 1500 army in the game (along with Gothmog, Morannons and either Gorgoroth Horde or Saruman & Druzhag allies). Black Darts are not for killing heroes, Black Darts are for Might draining -> no might = no magic resistance => you're dead.

The Winged Nazgul Battlehost belongs to the very best formations too - 5 of them in 1500 points are capable of destroying every possible army you could throw at them if you know how to play properly. The WotR UKGT 1st place match was played between a Winged Nazgul Battlehost and a Moria with Mumak/Overlord combo, which Moria won, but it was a lucky win, because if I had rolled anything other than 7, 8 or 9 on 3d3 I would have been probably slaughtered by the wraiths, just like the previous 4 opponents were.

RE: Regarding your later post:

In 1000 points try the following:

Gothmog
Khamul
Dwimmerlaik
Betrayer

4x Morannon Orcs
4x Morannon Orcs
4x Morannon Orcs
4x Morannon Orcs

Put each hero into each formation. Only call Epic Strike with Wraiths if you're duelled. Use Gothmog to copy everything possible and hunt down the non-ES enemy heroes.
Start your casting 1st turn with Wings of Terror, next turn with Strength from Corruption on your troops followed by Pall on Night on theirs or Black Darts on their Heroes. If you have Pall of Nighted a formation and you know that they don't have a counterspell, you can also then cast 3x Strength from Corruption on that formation instead to make it take 3d6 autohits.
Your Morannons are D7, so they die on 6s, but your Morannons are also S6 or even S8 if you cast SfC on them, so they kill Cohorts on 5s in front and 4s on the flank.
Take out the ent with SfC (in other words you have a lot of targets for SfC - USE IT. Don't bother with Visions of Woe, especially against Elves, it's completely pointless, at best it will kill 1-2 models, while SfC kills D6)

This:

1 form 4 coy wood elf archres
1 form 3 coy galadhrim knights
1 form 2 coy elven cohort
Galadriel, Thranduil, Haldir
1 ent

Will disappear in 4th turn at the latest if you follow what I just said

Easy game.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

@ BlackmIst

Thanks for your constructive reply.

I'll try adding Gothmog and see how he does, and the wraiths you mentioned. I dont have that many morannons unfortunately, so will have to go with other troops combos.

Oh and I'll re-evaluate spell use.

No doubt my opponent is also reading this, so he'll probably be trying to find a counter army now...

Thanks again
Scott

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

The best way to look at it is that you wondered why you shouldn't take a normal shaman instead of a ringwraith and the answer is - for 25 points you get an ability, Epic actions, the ability to move between formations, an extra lore of spells AND +2 mastery levels.

I think you've had bad luck combined with not necessarily the best thoughts as to their uses - these guys aren't combat monsters. They're primarily casters and bonus abilities. The Shadowlord is useful for preventing the elven shooting effecting a unit, the Betrayer is useful for helping you to kill the elves, Khamul (the most obvious to take) reduces wounds taken by a third (once closer to the elves, you can then make them do a third of the wounds caused to themselves - again, you seem to have had bad luck there), Dark Master will help to protect you against Terror (and make the Elves get less attacks against you), Knight of Umbar helps you to reduce attacks against you as well (maybe even get some extra ones yourself), even the Dwimmerlaik and Tainted can be useful when up close (reducing the effects of Galadriel's +1M and the extra courage from Heroes respectively), but I'd say the Undying and the Witch-King aren't worth it (personally. Others will disagree. Free Will of Iron rolls can be useful, but it only effects one formation and they can just aim spells elsewhere. With-King is way overpriced compared to the other Ringwraiths, not in general and gives little benefit, IMO).

Try using the Ringwraiths in a different fashion to combat monsters and try to make best use of the spells others have mentioned, combined with taking the right Ringwraiths for the opponent (and their style) and use their abilities well. Save their Might purely for Epic Strike for a duel.

Heh, just having a bob both ways - you do not generally see the argument made that Wraiths are UNDERpowered. Fishing etc is a time honoured forum past-time, though I was sure enough you were genuine to reply in detail. I and many of the Chch wargaming community are (along with their families) safe and accounted for, including Krugernz, who also posts here. It is much, much, worse than last time though.

Please do not follow Blackmist's suggestions. I see quite enough of those armies lol, though at least he hasn't allied in the Arbalesters! He is right though, nice focused units, that are not too large to move freely, and Wraiths to boost them up.

Without reaching for the top-tier Wraiths and all the combos right away, I think there are things to be done in terms of just making your army solid and flexible. A Mordor army should be able to get to grips with an Elven force and inflict enough damage to render them combat ineffective while preserving their own strength. I run my Wraiths as mastery two, so the mantra tends to be: pall of night and wings of terror, to the extent krugernz is only interested in what order the rolls occur, he knows what they are for. There is no 3rd Mastery for Strength from corruption, but I do tend to use this a lot vs Elves, especcially their Cohort unit. It is a solid ranged attack and keeps you out of melee+duels, which are the only areas I actually rate Elves in. Stop them from charging and then inflict d6 damage, while you keep hitting the rest of the army.

Heavy infantry seem to be the most useful troop type out there. However, I also find largish Orc units, run in columns benifiting from mob rule, pretty useful as well and they do not clutter up my lines.

FWIW, I think linear terrain is great for Flames of War but not right for WOTR. It just seems to interact very badly with the large unit footprints. I can empathise with having a heavy Cav unit, which by all rights should work, but doesn't. Heavy cav is always my favourite troop, but I am terrible at using it, no matter the game.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

reason for this: that army is the basis of one of the most powerful lists in the game, and alot of people use it cause its so powerful, that is why Xelee is asking you not too use it, cause its imba and too common (making the game boring)

Hehe, chill down, he'll realise himself how powerful the list can get and stop using it after a while I played a multi-wraith at the start too, though I was doing a bit of an overkill using 7 in 1500 pts It's more fun to use other armies, but competitively it's one of those lists you just have to learn to play against and the best way to learn to beat it is to use it yourself and find out what weaknesses it's got and how you deal with them - that way you can exploit them while facing it.

_________________
Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

Ok, so on the flip, can anyone suggest a 1000 pt Elf army that stands a chance against the army of Morannon Orcs and Wraiths above?

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"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?" - Gandalf

The key thing in this situation is that it isn't the Wraiths that are causing the issues for him. There are simple and effective ways to play the Mordor list. To be honest, if he restructures around properly composed infantry units - he will not actually need top-tier Wraiths. Given the way his rules work, you would be silly to not take Gothmog, but all the Wraiths except the Witch-King can easily justify themselves on the basis of their mastery and the Darkness list. Wraiths work for me even at mastery two, leaving the silly ones aside, and just having the two for 1000pts. What General wouldn't love the ability to move units as fast as Wraiths allow, given this is a turn based game?

So I think the issue is partially wierd terrain. I had this problem when I started the game as well, the learning experience from that meant I didn't repeat the mistake with Impetus. But it is also just designing units to fit a battle plan (and survive your opponent's efforts to disrupt yours), rather than fielding a motley assortement. Sucessful lists, for any system, are always more than the sum of their parts and that need not be about stacking abilities.

_________________
http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

On reflection and given the recent advice on Pall of Night and Strength through Corruption, I reckon I could have swung the battle if I had used these spells during last couple of turn of game.
I am quite keen for another go now, Gothmog or no...

Can StC be used repeatedly by differing wraiths/spellcasters on the same target? If so I presume the D6 Auto hits stack, but does the strength bonus stack also?

regards
Scott

_________________
www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

yes and yes,
the winged nazgul battle host dishes out ridiculous damage. when they fly over you they do 15D3 hits (on average 30 hits), that will wipe out 4c formations, and if you have only winged nazgul you can get 5 in 1500pts, so thats 5 SfCs, another 17-18 hits (you can now wipe out 6c formations, no matter what their defense is...)

as you play wotr more you'll see what everyones raving on about....

I don't think Gothmog is essential, but I'd still advise reformatting those troops.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

Yep I hear what you are saying: "motley assortment", and revising lists.

I think my problems are that I have often been more of a painter than a gamer - I can always find time to paint but can't always organise as many game as I would like, so my real experience is limited... This has led to an eclectic figure collection over a lengthy period, with lots of differing troop type, and not necessarily a "killer army" - I didnt decide to be Mordor commander and go out, after studying rulebook and buy 6 boxes of morannon orcs!

I also like trying to field painted troops, as I enjoy the spectacle of the game as much as the game-play itself, so again that can sometime limit what I put on table.

I did kinda have a plan; big block of orcs, morannons and knights to kill with, whilst the wargs, spiders, bats and warg rider were sort of fast moving "ablative armour" or arrow fodder, that would stay ahead of the Wings of Terror Formations, to hopefully allow me to close with good formations before getting killed. But the terrain on the day was just awful. Two hedges to cross, woods and buildings to squeeze past, through or round. I'm still intrigued what would have happened this time without those damn hedges...

But I hear what you are saying and will look to increase number of core strong infantry...

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

This isn't really about having to go out on the internet and 'listdeck' (I think I have the GWish term correct?) to play. For most of us, since we aren't really trying to be 'king of the world' with our toy soldiers, it is enough to get a list that works. That stated (assuming NATCON goes ahead) I think a couple of the locals have been enjoying the fun of playing around with the RAW lists and seeing what combinations they can come up with!

I would suggest that it is not a bad idea to run something that fits the way you are comfortable playing, if you are having difficulty. We all have our army types that we just do better with, no matter what game we play. It is pretty easy to see the similarity between say my WOTR ansd Ancients lists, but the links are there (in terms of the list's capacities) to even my FOW armies. So if you have armies for other systems that just seem to 'work' for you...

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