So what exactly is "Treacherous"? You said that Grima and Gollum have it, but you never said what it is.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Here is how it would affect monsters. I'm trying to encourage more monsters in the mix of armies.

Ent 125 pts 3 Strength 8 hits at 16"
Treebeard 225 pts 3 Strength 9 hits at 18"
Quickbeam 150 pts 3 Strength 8 hits at 16"
Beechbone 150 pts 3 Strength 8 hits at 16"
Mordor Troll 100 pts 3 Strength 7 hits at 14"
Mordor Troll Drummer 150 pts 3 Strength 7 hits at 14"
Mordor Troll Chieftain 200 pts 3 Strength 8 hits at 16"
Isengard Troll 100 pts 3 Strength 7 hits at 14"
Isengard Troll Captain 150 pts 3 Strength 7 hits at 14"
Cave Troll 75 pts 2 Strength 6 hits at 12"
Stone Giant 250 pts 3 Strength 9 hits at 18"
Buhrdur 125 pts 2 Strength 6 hits at 12"

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

Darugluin: Treacherous is detailed in the Special Rules section. Basically they don't count as Epic Heroes for purposes of Army Comp/Decrees.

Slythar, I like that chart! I put in your range modifier. It's certainly doesn't seem unreasonable and makes Throwing Weapons something other than a joke with some of the bigger guys. Seems to me it is a bigger change for Monsters than for Cav (Rohan), however. Certainly doesn't fix them on its own.

Played a game today, 1000pts Elves v. Angmar, I'll put the Batrep up Saturday when I have time to edit the pictures together. Made some more "little" changes, but haven't pointed up a new faction yet. I like Elves where they are-- Galadhrim with Shields are pretty good at 40pts/company, but not too devastating against my Carn Dum Men (10pts less/co.). Elves are a much more dangerous-looking beast when they're striking first, though. Gaurwaith look good too, except when Cirdan's awake.

Changes to:
Wings of Terror is flat M bonus, AtD not allowed. Can be cast on formations within 12" now as well.
Warriors of Arnor cost 30pts/co.
Haldir's Elves are back.
Focus adjustments for a couple spells.

I'm thinking about what to do with H2K. I was thinking about either

a) throwing out the table and giving Monsters a "Wounds" stat instead; they would keep their resilience, and any "casualty" (# of hits equal to resilience) would just cause a "wound," so to kill them you have to reduce Wounds to 0. OR
b) increasing the scale of the H2K table. Regular H2K could only "kill" on, say, an 8+, VH2K on a 9+, adjusting table scale to something like:

H2K Table
1: No Effect
2-4: 1 wound counter
5-7: 2 wound counters
8+: Slain
VH2K is -1 to table.
Wound Counters add +1 to table.

Ideas?

Also, what do people think about Focus rolls coming before spells, rather than after? Just fishing for opinions here.

Thanks for any comments.

I understand that elves are swift no nonsense beings, but they are already so UBER GOOD. I dont think its a good idea to change their striking order to when cav strike. they already have terror, pathfinder(master) move of 8 amazing fight values and shoot values and high courage.

If somthing like this did happen to the elves then they would be like 70 points a company, which is crazy for just a normal troop choice.

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I have my issues with GW but in the end, secretly, I am a GW fanatic.

To keep the H2K chart simple, just add -1 for the H2K (basically making it VH2K) and make VH2K have a -2 modifier.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

You clearly have not tried an elven army yourself. Elves are ridiculously overosted in normal rules, the terror doesn't matter as wraiths are courage 5, the movement doesn't matter because they can cast WoT. Shooting is very poor in WOTR, the fight value is only good for duels, and courage doesn't matter.



I think the abiove is a good idea.

Also, if you want a name for that Uruk-hai Captain, here are soem suggestions:

Ufluk, Urg, Muzgash, Mugrat, Muzgash, Gurk, Marku, Guruk, Ugrat, Turgash.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Eleves have too many special rules already. like goth mog said about the courage and stuff. it doesnt matter. the elven player is already paying such highcost for troops that dont show what they should be worth. they should lose special rules to make them cheaper, giving the player more companies, all the special rules dont even help that much, its just makes the formations more expensive. thats why im saying the elves shouldnt be given any more special rules

_________________
I have my issues with GW but in the end, secretly, I am a GW fanatic.

Then there's nothing to distinguish them from other armies. We could easily balance the game by only letting people run WoMT an Morranon Orcs but there would be no fun in that. The Elves deserve a higher price tag and the special rules to merit that cost.

In SBG, my group of friends have all bows as +1 strength and it works great. Doesn't change the outcome of the game that much, but it's more realistic and it gives the elves an advantage. Maybe increasing the Strength of bows in WotR would make the elves better. Maybe also add in something about bonus' to wound based on the units accuracy.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

IM A ENT: Take a look through all the changes that have been made. It seems like perhaps you haven't read through everything enough to know all of what's been done (here, at least) with the Elves. I very much agree with Gothmog and Figwit in these regards.

Gothmog: Thanks for the names! I wanted to add another Uruk captain in for Isengard. There's no named guy for who "leads" the fight at the Hornberg, but presumably there was one. Those names are a good place to start.

Draugluin: Nice H2K table. Worth some trying out. As for +1S to Bows, the way the S v. D system works in WotR I'm not so sure about it. There is much less variation in the To Hit chart for WotR than in the To Wound charts of the Warhammer games, so even S1 can still do damage in the right volume. Mostly I think it would be a problem for the already not-actually-that-hard-to-kill Monsters. Also, based on the game I played yesterday, Elves seem about right for now. Bows do seem like they need help when you first look at them, but I find the slow rate of change in the To Hit charts makes up for that (since S1 can still reliably get rolls on the H2K table against D7, which is absolutely beyond unheard-of with the To Wound charts of Warhammer games). Food for thought.

I went through and made changes to MM, and a couple other things:
Decreased costs for Troll Drummers and Chieftans, Necromancer and Sauron
Sauron gets Spirit Grasp
New special rule Voice of Darkness for The Mouth-- first try/see what you think.
Points adjustments across the board for MM, less Prowlers and Pathfinders, Bolg's Beaters, Azog, Golfimbul, Balrog now knows Darkness spells.

Thanks for the comments/help and keep them coming.

I think you should reduce the size of Grishnakh back to max comps but increase Shagrats to 4 comps and Gorbag to 6 comps. The Mouth of Sauron should have 2 might if he has that ability.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Hey guys, took a little bit of a break from WotR b/c of a 40k tournament and some other things, but I'm back with that batrep for ya'll to take a gander at. Well, what's left of it. I forgot a lot of what happened. :/

Hopefully some more mussing/playing sometime soon and I'll take better notes/put it up sooner next time. And get to work on some things in this rules set too. Anyhow.

Game was Angmar (surprise!) v. Elves (surprise!), 1000pts. We rolled Maelstrom (I swear it's all I play outside 'Ard Boyz), Field of Swords.

My list:
Epic Hero: Spiritseer of Rhudaur
Common: Carn Dum Barbarians (4 companies, Hornblower, and Witch)
Common: Carn Dum Barbarians (4 companies, Hornblower, and Witch)
Rare: Court of Fallen Kings (2 companies)
Rare: Gaurwaith (3 companies)
Illegal (oops) Rare: Shade

I kind of threw it together quickly when I got to the store. This may be observed in the fact of the illegal composition.... err, oh well. I was mostly trying to take stuff that would allow me to gauge the effectiveness of the new elves: Carn Dum being slightly cheaper in points with Berserk and Shields, Elves should show a slight combat advantage (increased by charging and negating Berserk); Gaurwaith because the would strike before Elves on the charge. Shade to level the Fight playing field for my inferior troops and wights. Spiritseer just to try him out with the wights.

His List (to my recollection):
Epic Hero: Celeborn
Epic Hero: Cirdan
Common: Galadhrim Archers (4 companies, Stormcaller)
Common: Galadhrim Warriors (6 companies, Shields, Captain)
Common: Galadhrim Warriors (6 companies, Shields, Captain)

I think that's about right.

I won Priority for the first turn, and let him come on first. Archers and Cirdan's formation of galadhrim came on in one corner and Celeborn stayed off. That's it.

Then I came on mostly along the same board edge, but further along it, with pretty much everyone except the Gaurwaith showing up right away.

For you viewing pleasure: http://www.box.net/s/xzi4qha02gs6vktb22uz

Turn 2, Celeborn showed up behind Cirdan. There was a bit of pathetic attempts at casting on both our parts, and then the Elf Archers shot the Shade in the face. Still, basically just moving and shifting around.

Illegal Shade Caught in the Act: http://www.box.net/s/q9veoq826eppfocd0npd

In other news, I'm looking forward to a better H2K table.

Turn 3 was pretty uneventful according to my notes. :/ Cirdan lit up a wight, and I think I transfixed the archers. Maybe they killed a Wight too. Nothing spectacular. I was having trouble getting in charge range because my Carn Dum were refusing to pass AtD tests. Gaurwaith still hadn't shown up and I was beginning to wonder if they would show up at all or if maybe Maelstrom was just going to [word deleted] on my plans again.

Of course, then turn 4 rolls around. I got priority, so he went first. Set himself up to receive all my charges, and hopefull shoot the Devlan Mud out of me. He did really well with his Magic and managed to kill 7 Wights(!) with Light of the Valar. I hate that spell. My turn, I set up to make all those charges (sort of), and then the werewolves show up in his rear, right next to the Archers! Fun times. Maelstrom redeemed (not really).

Sneaky Wolfses: http://www.box.net/s/e1us1hjde2s2bmyyml9t

The ensuing combats were a mixed bag. His archers took a pounding in the rear (heh, heh), losing 13, but toughed it out anyhow. On the other side, the Spiritseer tried to call a Duel he knew he couldn't avoid anyhow, rolled a 1, and got pasted, along with a bunch of wights, before the fighting really even began. Kind of makes me rethink the cool-factor of a Wight Hero. Even old-man-Cir-dan was Fighty enough to beat the Devlan Mud out of this ghost. And most of his buddies. Wights rolled Steadfast with 2 left and killed a few elves in return.

Ghosts suck at dueling: http://www.box.net/s/zcrs3frs6ngcdg4xpxv5

Turn 5: Archers were disordered. Other elves got Heroic Charges off on all my Barbarians, negating Berserk. In combat, a wight died, and barbarians trade blows with elves, not too uneven all things considered. Shields helped a lot there, but once Cirdan woke up and started making his saves, I was in trouble (he had been failing spectacularly earlier in the game, even though his ability was now twice as good!). With the Cirdan saves and no Berserk, I was not putting out much offense. Still, all my formations were Steadfast "like a mother-f*cker." (I guess that doesn't make any sense. Oh well.) I am pretty good at those rolls. Gaurwaith actually failed to charge and stood around drooling, IIRC.

Sh*t Got Ugly: http://www.box.net/s/v1y4y7cgun68bxrqyv2i

Unfortunately I don't have any more pictures, and I stopped taking notes turn 4. Wasn't really paying attention that day. The rest of the game is the Gaurwaith devouring the Archers, hitting Cirdan's formation in the rear, and staring dumbfounded (rolling 1's for all their charge bonuses) as Cirdan made saves in spectacular fashion. The Elves continued to whittle away the barbarians with their combined Initiative and Fight advantages outweighing the Shields. Another big factor was me not having might left for Heroic Charges, thus negating Berserk for the rest of the game.

I could have made a better list, admittedly, but all in all things were pretty close and the honest reason the Elves controlled the combats so well with my barbarians was b/c of my lack of Might, and the loss of the Shade especially. I'm definitely happy with where the elves are now, as compared to the "actual" rules.

That's about it right now. Gotta see if I can get in a game or two this week for more messing around, and we'll see what happens.

Also, I added in a new H2K table as per Draugluin's suggestion. The Contents section page numbers might be a bit off now but I'll deal with that later.

You could call "Mad Thenn the Black" Sharkey, and forbid his use in combo with Saruman the White Hand. That way, you get a themed name, and have a good excuse for adding him in

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"... Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time."
-On Andùril, The Lord of the Rings