So I was looking through the War of the Ring rulebook again and noticed something unique on page 85. In the section titled 'Choose a Faction' just past mid-way down the page there is a section that states that after you've chosen your faction you must choose whether your allegiance is Good or Evil. It also says that that choice determines whether you can choose Fortunes or Fates and dictates the allies you will be able to take.

So, after reading that section many times, I interpret it to say that I could field my Dwarves and say that my allegiance is 'Evil' and my 25% allocation of allies would come from evil factions instead of 'Good' factions...is that correct? So for example, could I do something ridiculous like field a Dwarf army and bring in a Ringwraith on a Fellbeast? That's how I'm reading it anyway. Please take a look at it and tell me what you think. I've never played a game where that unique and interesting option was available.

Thanks!

Unique and interesting interpretation is more like it.

Actually, not that unique as it is a common misinterpretation.

Pertinent quotes:





Note that on page 87,Fortunes are taken by good armies, Fates by evil armies.

Furthermore, all that tainted by desire, darkest soul redeemed doo-doo is VERY commonly mistaken as cross allying with different allegiances.

What that is actually referring to is you, the person playing the game, not the army you control.

Read the first quote carefully again.

"When you've chosen your faction (Dwarves)...you'll also have made a ...decision. The decision in question is your allegiance to Good or Evil (Good)."

Once you remove all the extraneous adverbs, it makes much more sense.

You chose dwarves, so that means your allegiance is to Good.

Now lets look at the second quote:

"Your allegiance...dictates the allies you'll be able to take and the fortunes or fates available to your army".

Since your allegiance is good, you choose from good factions for allies and use fortunes.

Make sense now?

Just to play 'Devil's Advocate', how do you explain the last paragraph in the Choose a Faction section?

"Some might say that you should choose your allegiance to the Free Peoples or to Sauron before you select a faction, but the truth is that even the noblest heart can be tained by the desire to wield the dark sorcery of the Nazgul, just as the darkest soul can be redeemed by the glory of the Elves - choose the army you like the most, and let your redemption or corruption attend to itself..."

So, in the whole section of fluff, is GW really meaning to say that when you select a faction, you must still select Good allies to go with your Good army but can say that you are fighting on the Evil side because you support Sauron? Or are they saying that you can take Evil allies with your Good army and vice versa?

I find it odd that they say to pick your Faction first, then declare your allegiance second. Why put it that way if they don't really mean for people to mix Evil allies with Good armies and vice versa? After reading the book again, going by the way they word it, it doesn't sound like picking Dwarves automatically means I'm 'Good' or 'Evil'. Perhaps it DOES dictate which allies I can use, but it kinda sounds like a person could say that the army they're putting on the field as had a change of heart, and that mass of Goblins being led by a mighty Balrog (with a halo of course) is now fighting for good of all mankind, lol!

Make it as complicated as you want, but I already explained why. Carefully reading my post will show that. (hint: 7th line down)

Have fun with the convoluted rationale. Play it however you want.

To me if you wanted to say the Good factions are fighting for Evil you can, but I dont think that means you can pick a good army and then pick allies from the Evil faction, that seems pretty clear to me, its One list Good or Evil, not mixing.

More "realistic" would be if you picked the Good faction and had to fight Good armies, the refer to the boarder dispute or some other rationale, I wouldnt go as far as to say they are for Sauron or Evil anyway.

Hellfury has already explained it just fine, but if you need further clarification, we have already hashed out this question in another thread:

Click here for old thread

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

Erunion, that link was a good one, thanks

Lord, what is so complicated?

Sorry to be the old curmudgeon here, but for Pete's sake, isn't Tolkien pretty clear on who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

Why do people even discuss this unless a) they've never read the LotR and this is just another game system or b) they're calculating how to cherry pick and optimize units across factions or c) they're dying to run their Balrog model with their Wood Elves.

No offense to anyone but I am in disbelief that there's even a question about this.

Sorry you guys all took this so personally. The intent of my original post was seeking information. Therefore, I would like to clarify a couple things from my point of view.

#1. I've played a grand total of three games and am very new to the intricacies of the rulebook, found something I wanted clarified by you helpful, informed, experienced, veteran players...

#2. I'm sorry I did not happen come across the link to that thread where it was all 'hashed' out in the past when I searched.

#3. Yes, I have read the whole LotR trilogy.

#4. Through playing a game based in a fantasy world, the goal isn't always to copy what actually happened in the book, but sometimes to explore what could happen if an influential character or group of people happened to change allegiances, etc...

Thank you fellow gamers for you support.

Hey, Luvdiscgolf.

Nothing was taken personally and there's certainly never a need to apologize for asking a question! My only intent in pointing you to the old thread is that we had an extended discussion on the topic, and I thought you might like reading through it. There are soooo many threads on this forum, so it's no big deal if you miss one. In fact, it took me a while to dig up the link myself, and I had even posted in it!

As far as "What if?" scenarios go, I think they are great, but they are definitely something you should go over with your opponent beforehand. The game is written and (somewhat) balanced to be played Good or Evil, but there is nothing saying you can't play around with things in friendly games. However, as a general rule, you should stick to the guidelines in a pick-up game or competitive environment.

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies

Definitely no need to apologize and nothing was taken personally.

As for what if scenarios, I am all for them, especially if you read a lot (as in the umpteen books on the history of middle earth, book of lost tales, etc.).

There is a story in the second book of lost tales called "The Nauglafring" which translates to "the necklace of the dwarves"

In this story, the basic premise is that the dragon Glaurung (Glorund in this story) was killed and his treasure taken. As a Vassal of Melkor, Glaurung's hoard was very intertwined by evil. The Elven king Tinwelint now in possession of this hoard was warned by his wife Gwenniel that the hoard was evil and that it should be thrown into the river (water being the one area Melkor was never able to influence with his corruption).

Tinwelint was going to do that until a gnome by the name of Ufhedin saw and was entranced by the glamour of the hoard. He suggested to Tinwelint that he and other dwarves could fashion the hoard into various baubles for the elven king (including a necklace for Gwenniel as a set for Tinwelint's silmaril), and Tinwelint ordered it to be so.

So Ufhedin chartered the help of dwarves who came for miles to fashion the ensorcelled hoard into objects. The Elven king kept Ufhedin hostage until the dwarves returned.

The dwarves did return as promised, and after much negotiating while the elven king kept them all hostage, the elven king gave the dwarves a pittance for their trouble and even charged them for the accommodations while being kept hostage.

Oviously the dwarves did not like this, so they went home. The dwarven king was angered at vowed to destroy Tinwelint but the wood elves homes were protected by powerful magic hiding them from non elves. At least, until the found an elf who turned against his own kind...

The Dwarven king made allies with orcs and goblins and assaulted the wood elves homes and killed Tinwelint, taking the necklace with the silmaril for his own prize.


The story continues with much more nastiness by both sides, each side apparently being quite greedy for the prize. Its a very early story before LotR was completed, and there are many simalarities between just this story and the entire LotR trilogy. Its just an example of the possibilities for whatever background you choose to set up games with. Your imagination is the only limitation here.

I will say though be very careful mixing good and evil allies, because it quickly becomes apparent that some very broken combos can arise, so beware. That said, have fun.

That is a fun storyline, and the game totally would allow most of that (dwarves attacking elves), there is no rule against a Good faction army fighting a Good faction army.

mixing orcs and dwarves rules wise shouldnt.

I just dont think mixing Good and Evil lists should be allowed.

just my .02

Well, ruleswise we know that mixing good and evil isn't allowed. You're missing the forest for the trees concerning the last post. If its just a fun game between two like-minded players, then the sky is the limit.

The point of the example was about allowing creativity in fun games to dictate what is taken, not strict adherence to the rules. Basically, you couldn't recreate the Nauglafring campaign without doing so.

Creating scenarios are a free form ideal. Just looking at the scenarios at the back of the WotR book is indicative of scenarios that aren't even close to being considered balanced, yet can be fun for both players.

Fun being the point of the game.