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LOTR Variant - 40K Skirmish
http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=6055		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dagorlad [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  LOTR Variant - 40K Skirmish
I have a smallish army of Imperial Guard and another smallish army of Orks (both around 1000 points), but I have no great desire to go out and purchase more models to add to the collections. Plus I haven't bought the latest rulebook since my hobby budget has been consumed 100% by LOTR. So 40K is not a real gaming option for me.

However...

What I'd really like is to play a 40K skirmish game with a small amount of troops using a ruleset that was easy to master and fun to play.

[enter the Lord of the Rings SBG]

The LOTR ruleset is the perfect basis for something like this, and GW have adapted it already for their Legends of the Old West game (which is a great game by the way). I was thinking of developing a 40K version myself, but would need some help...

Anyone interested?
Author:  Nygyll of Wyvernhole [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Only problem really is the varied Weaponry of 40K difficult to get all of that into a single dice roll. How did they manage it with the Wild West game?
Author:  Dagorlad [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
The weapons in Legends of the Old West have different ranges and strengths, just like bows in LOTR. Some have area effects (like dynamite or nitro) which would translate into grenades etc for 40K. The shoot phase is exactly the same in both systems - roll a dice to see if you get higher than your Shoot skill (3+ etc), then roll for wounds based on your opponent's Defence vs your weapon's strength.

Cover plays a part in it too. Some types of cover has greater stopping power than other types: e.g. a brick wall provides better protection than a fence post. The weapons in 40K have a greater punch than the old Colt .45, so the table would need to be adjusted accordingly, but the concept is sound and quite simple to use.

One neat twist to the shooting is the 'Courage under fire' concept. If a model get hit with a bullet, but either no damage was done (i.e. failed To Wound roll), or it was wounded but is still alive, then the model must take a courage test and if it fails, it dives for the nearest cover.
Author:  valpas [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:10 am ]
Post subject: 
I haven't played 40k but I've been interested about it for a while. If you guys can squeeze out a LotR rules based skirmish system for it, that would definitely lower the entry barrier for people like me. I'd like to paint a few models and play a game with them but I don't want to invest the time to painting a whole army.

-- Pasi
Author:  gondorian_knight [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Well I'll offer up my services, having played legends of the old west (and loving it I might add) with my Dad, and having a fair knowledge of the 40k rules.

Although one thing I would say is this - is there any chance of having more realism? The thing is space marines are meant to be amazingly hard, yet it doesnt come accross in the game. The same with some other races.

I just thought as we were going to have to build profiles for them anyway, that we could adjust it so that the mechanics suit the actual backstory of 40K, and not just base it all one the main rulesset.

Its just an idea though.
Author:  Suladan [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
ill help, i dont know how to play 40k but i used to collect space marines
Author:  Dagorlad [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:45 am ]
Post subject: 
If this project ever gets off the ground it will be slower than the Wright Brothers plane. Its a 'work on it when you feel like it' type of thing, so there is no great hurry. At the moment I am just gauging the interest and seeing if anyone else seems to thinks its a good idea.
Author:  Nygyll of Wyvernhole [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Have you possibly tried the Necromunda rule set?
It can easily be mixed in with 40K rules and best of all is available as a >free download<
It does cover lots of rule similar to 40K but can be a bit complex. Best bit really is the campaign ideas. Allows you to build a gang/squad and watch it grow, like battle companies.
Author:  Thrór Clawhammer [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Not meaning offence to the idea, but I think this is possibly overfaith in the LOTR ruleset. Things like Melta Weapons, Frag/Plasma Grenades, Rapid Fire weapons, unit coherency, Initiative order, Psychic powers etc etc.

For example - Genestealers are fairly elite (for a Troops choice), and part of their appeal is their Initiative of 6 - they strike very early in the combat and have a good chance of Sweeping Advance(ing) their enemies out of existence. Howling Banshees wear the Banshee Mask, allowing them to always strike first. But in a LOTR version, these advantages would be removed, and hence the models would not be worth their high points cost. The Catalyst psychic power (Tyranid Hive Tyrant) allows models to strike back even if killed before their Initiative turn - again, becoming redundant.

However, if someone can justify these things to me, then I would be happy to contribute, and with three codexes and a ruleboook in the house 40K-wise, I think I could add a fair bit. Once again, I don't mean offence to the idea or it's creators, but there is a reason why 40K didn't begin with a LOTR-like ruleset.

thror.
Author:  gondorian_knight [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
We aren't going to just port accross the rules and stuff. Profiles will be remade, equipment rules resorted. Genestealers will still have an advantage in combat, and will be quicker than other units etc. Banshees will have their masks, but also they will be more agile etc.

So don't think in the narrow terms that rules will be made redundant, they will be changed so that they work with the rules set. You seem to be thinking in terms that the profiles will jusst be brought accross with the rules, but that isnt the case.

As for the bits mentioned first, unit coherency will be gone - one of the main things to get rid of as it works for 40k but would give us a chance to be more freeform. Psychic powers are easy - treated like magic. Weaponry could easily be brought across into the lotr rules.

"I don't mean offence to the idea or it's creators, but there is a reason why 40K didn't begin with a LOTR-like ruleset."

Firstly, 40k has been around for years. Secondly the styles are different. Take a look at 40k and Inquisitor. Same universe, different rules, but different style of game. That is the idea here.

The game, as far as I can tell, will be intended as squad based action, with a couple of squads or whatever, that gives us a chance to bring things to 40k that it is lacking - morale, realism according to its fluff - what I mean by this is that if the fluff says it is a near invincible killing machine than by hell it will be, which usually doesnt happened in 40k. Anyway plenty of other stuff.

This isnt meant to be used for battles on the scale of 40k ones, it is smaller, more like necromunda but with a better ruleset, and you arent limited to what troops you can use. Its all a matter of scale.

I know Dagorlad should be the one saying this, but having spoken to him I can see where he wants this project aimed at
Author:  Dagorlad [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Dave, that pretty neatly sums up my thoughts about this project. I love the 40K universe and think the concept behind it all is great, but to get a game these days I need at least 1500 points of troops and so there's no way I'm going to spend that much on a new army.

The idea is to develop a small scale skirmish game using few troops per side (squad level or even smaller) with a ruleset that many people are familiar with.

Some conceptual things Dave (GK) and I have discussed is trying to regain the flavour of the individual races - the Space Marines should be Hard - they are the toughest warriors in the galaxy and the game should reflect that. Also, Tyranids should be frightening to play against - they are a swarming mass of teeth and claws that can shred the toughest armour like paper. etc.

I've downloaded the Necromunda rules (and Inquisitor and Battlefleet Gothic and Epic and Blood Bowl) - thanks for the heads up about the free download - and will have a good look at these rulesets.
Author:  Nygyll of Wyvernhole [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:02 am ]
Post subject: 
If you want/need any help or testing let me know, oh and I have (far too many) rulebooks and codices if you need rule clarifications,
Codex books on
Space Marines
Dark Angels
Blood Angels
Space Wolves
Imperial Guard
Catachan
Necrons
Armageddon
Orks
Tau
City Fight
Eye of Terror
Author:  Thrór Clawhammer [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, thanks Dave for explaining those things - I would certainly be very interested as I have two models 40K wise at the moment, and I do actually want to fight a battle fairly soon.

By some twist of fate I have three codexes that Nyg doesn't have, which is surprising looking at all the stuff he has - Eldar, Craftworld Eldar and 'Nids, as well as the Battle for Macragge rulebook. So yes, I'm very interested.

However, could copyright be a problem?
Author:  gondorian_knight [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
I wouldnt expect so - lots of 40k supplemental games have been created. One or two of which actually made it into the large rulebook for 40k, the new edition, which started as just fan supplements.

THe books I have:
Second edition rules and some codices
3rd edition rules (digital copy)
4th Ed rules
Codices:
Necron
Tau
Marine (the newer one)
Eldar
Eldar Craftworlds
Daemonhunters
Witchunters

Erm other than that I have some other random bits of info, and friends that have more stuff than me.
Author:  Gothmog Rulez! [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
i am interested as i find full WH40Kto complicated
Author:  Treebeard [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Not wishing to put a dampner on the project, but it would seem very difficult, the best referance I can give you is this:
http://total40k.proboards62.com/index.cgi?board=ga&action=display&thread=1135640019 It's an article posted on Total40K about a variation of kill team where each model can move independantly, it does involve using the kill team rules and main game rules to an extent, I hope it's some use to you.
Good Luck!

Simon
Author:  Thrór Clawhammer [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Reading my book, Redemption Ark, yesterday, I read about "a series of pitched battles and stands in various areas of the ship", and I thought - now this is something we could do. WH40K at the moment is too large scale to do a "Ship Assault" campaign, but I was thinking. So you start with a scenario, the attackers just boarding, and being repelled, and then if the attackers win, you advance, and so on, until you get all the way to the control room. I like this because it means that you don't have to send in hundreds of models to take over a ship, just a squad or two.

I was reading some Legend of the Old West stuff yesterday, and I think it might be a good idea to give options for models gaining experience?
Author:  Gothmog Rulez! [ Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
yeah that would be cool, and maybe, small scale for WH40k but 500pt raids
Author:  Dagorlad [ Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Yeah Thror, the LotOW experience idea is very similar to the Battle Companies idea - which gives the whole thing a sort of 'Role Playing' feel to it.

And I like the idea of the 'Ship Assault' scenario too - reminiscent of the old Space Hulk game.
Author:  Thrór Clawhammer [ Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:52 am ]
Post subject: 
Space Hulk is exactly what I was thinking about. I've written some background guides on each of the races, along the lines of explaining what the race should be like to fight against - as you've already mentioned, Space Marines are hard, and Tyranids are scary.

The Tyranids are horrifying to see, let alone to fight. Their swarming organisms dispose of as many enemies by frightening them away as by killing them.

The Space Marines are hard, the toughest warriors in the know galaxy. Superhumans, they stand against their opponents, firm in the knowledge that they are the stronger.

The Eldar exude an aura of mysterious, graceful menace. They are as beautiful as they are dangerous, and their arrogance is exceeded only by their firepower.

The Dark Eldar are twisted, victims of the Warp God Slaanesh. They are disgusting to look upon, deformed and forced to rely on drugs to aid their – lethal – combat efforts.

The Chaos Space Marines are traitors, abhorred by the Imperium and most other races. They, like their righteous brethren, are superhuman, but twisted and mutated by chaos and the Warp they have become even more deadly.

The Tau are happy, happy in the knowledge that they are spreading the Greater Good throughout the galaxy. They are not warlike, and their mission is to spread peace and hope. A mission that is being constantly stopped by those who see the Tau as a threat.

The Necrons are an ancient race, constructed from metal and constantly searching for sacrifices to their ever-hungry gods. Impossibly resistant to anything their enemies can throw at them, the Necrons have a dream – a dream to eradicate all life.

The Orks are a living tide of green warriors, constantly fighting amongst themselves – at least until a leader arises. These Warbosses lead their warriors on campaigns of conquest and bloodshed, armed with crude firearms and vehicles, with little or no purpose besides genocide.


Along the lines of experience, you'd do something along the lines of LotOW or Battle Companies - starting with a small squad, you gradually work up. However, one thing that would need to change would be reinforcements - can you imagine a few friendly warriors just turning up when you are adrift in space?

So if you start with say, a squad of 5 Swooping Hawks, inc. an Exarch, and they all have names, then they gradually upgrade etc. For Eldar this works well because you can have just one Aspect, rather than a mix.
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