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Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
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Author:  ChrisGough [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
Hi all,

I finished ME:SOM the other day on my PS4 and loved it. I came up with the following house-rules for Talion. In terms of minis I plan to convert the Faramir Ranger model (paint in blues with some source-lighting on the eyes and hand).

C&C welcome.

Talion
Cost = 160pts
M F S D A C
6” 6/3+ 4 6 3 6
Wounds 3
Might 3
Will 3
Fate 2

SPECIAL RULES:
Broken Blade: May fight with 4 attacks instead of the usual 3 but suffers -1 on rolls to wound.
The Bright Master: If Talion wins a fight involving at least one Orc Warrior (or Uruk or Goblin) he may, instead of striking normally, force a single Orc to take a courage test. If failed, the Orc immediately becomes a Good model for the remainder of the game.
Wraith Bow: The Wraith Bow may either be used as a normal Elf Bow or it may be used to cast the following Spell (using Talion’s Will as normal): (Rg 24”, 4+): If cast Talion teleports into combat with target enemy. If channeled, the is also a fight heroic combat in the Fight phase.
Wraith: Talion’s Heroic Actions and Stand Fast may not affect other Good Models other than his Orcs (see the Bright Master above)
Author:  rigg1313 [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
I love the special rules you've created! And the points cost is about right. However I have been thinking about this profile myself and have thought perhaps he should be inline with the Ringwraith stat line for Defence and Wounds. By that I mean he should have that super high Defence but loose a couple of wounds, maybe make his fate 3 instead to balance this. OR keep the stat line you have made above and have him have no fate rolls but alternatively when he dies (looses his final wound he gets a roll like "The One Ring" rule for Sauron, on a 2+ on a roll of D6 he doesn't die, just like in the game you never really die. You would probably have to make him about 180-200 points then.

I have made a Celebrimbor (before he died) profile as well.

190 points

F S D A W C M W F
7 4 8 3 3 7 3 4 3

He has an elven blade, wears elven mithril armour, an elven ring of power (re-roll fate rolls), causes terror.
He can take a shield for 5 points.
He can take a horse for 10 points.
He can cast immobilise on 3+, command on 4+, aura of command 2+, aura of dismay 2+.

I think perhaps a spell or two should be dropped?
Author:  Wise Old Elf [ Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
This is fantastic. I can't wait to see some decent customised minis for these two characters on here!
Author:  JamesR [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
Haven't played the game (don't want to either), but the profiles seem to fall prey to the video games power bias. Is he really better than Aragorn? Because your profiles are better than Aragorn's.

Again I haven't played the game but I'd say he needs a serious drop in his profile IMO. If I were to follow exactly what the games do I'd have to make Berethor have 10 attacks and Farin have a rapid fire crossbow. Just my thoughts
Author:  Pindergorn [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
JamesR wrote:
Haven't played the game (don't want to either), but the profiles seem to fall prey to the video games power bias. Is he really better than Aragorn? Because your profiles are better than Aragorn's.


If you have to ask, then you clearly haven't played the game.

Short answer: Yes! :lol:

At least, Talion is portrayed orders of magnitude more powerful than how Aragorn is portrayed in the films and books.

I would add to the profile the "Elven Cloak" rule and the Fell Warg rule that allows a model to charge without having LOS to the target at the start of his move, to represent Talion's stealth abilities.
Author:  JamesR [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
But this is my point. Play the movie games for example as Aragorn and you'll take on as many as 20-30 Uruks simultaneously with no trouble, and kill 300+ in a single level. Video games make terrible points of reference for character power levels
Author:  rigg1313 [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
You really need to play the game before commenting on it...
It is only when you start unlocking the "wraith" powers do you become "powerful" and rightly so. You become some what like the anti-dark lord with Celebrimbor. Talion before becoming a wraith with Celebrimbor was just the Gondor Captain in charge of the Black Gate, so like a Cirion level profile.
Author:  JamesR [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
rigg1313 wrote:
You really need to play the game before commenting on it...


I'm not trying to insult the game or say that your profiles are inaccurate to the game itself. I was just trying to say for a translation to SBG I believe the profiles are OP. If you look at threads where the same has been done with characters from War in the North or The Third age (which I myself have done as well), there's been an attempt to balance the power levels of the characters.

In the 3rd age you go and slaughter several Mumaks by the end. Olog Hai trolls become a laughing stock to you.

The same is true in War in the North, trolls supported by scores of Orcs are but ants before you.

And as I said before in ROTK the Movie game Gandalf, Aragorn and the like have no trouble killing 400+ orcs at one level.

All that being said, those games obviously aren't the best example of balance in the LOTR universe lol. But that's hardly unique Star Wars and other such series do the same thing in the name of an exciting game (The Force Unleashed for example)
Author:  rigg1313 [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
Oh i didn't mean to insinuate that you're insulting the game. I meant you really need to play it to understand this game in particular. I have played every single lord of the rings based game and this is by far my favourite because it feels more real (yes even with made up wraith stuff and a 'houseless' elf possessing people).
By the end when you have all your wraith powers unlocked and Celebrimbor remembers everything you feel A LOT more powerful than any other Lord of the Rings character. Whilst its not at all cannon and completely made up, you end up being essentially THE DARK LORD but with good intentions, you have unholy powers and an Orc army you control. Talion could bitch slap Aragorn into the ground in the Shadow of Mordor universe.

However I understand trying to power down the profiles to fit in better with SBG. But you are powering down random dunedain, dwarves and those bloody female mage elves that seem to make it into a game every time there are multiple characters. They are more or less regular warriors how have done some cool stuff so are now light top level captains.
Talion is no ordinary ranger, he is a captain which isn't much better but the whole point is that he sharing a body with the super power elf (who was Feanor's Grandson, the second greatest smith/craftsman ever and had some control over magic when he was alive as the rings of power had magic woven into them). The things Celebrimbor allows him to do place him way above the other made up Lord of the Rings games characters and if the profile does not represent that then there is no point having a profile at all.
Also you could think of it this way, Celebrimbor (alive not spirit version) would be 150-200 points in the game easily (I am surprised a profile was never made). The Spirit version in Talion is now stronger. Thus Talion must be greater than 150 at the very least!

To round it up I HIGHLY ADVISE PLAYING THE GAME! IT IS SO MUCH FUN. Who doesn't want to mind control an Orc Army?
Author:  ChrisGough [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
Some interesting discussions here. The trouble with points values is that they make the whole who-is-the-most-powerful question a bit arbitrary (note Talion does not cost more than Aragorn as king). Also, whilst the profile and rules I came up with make him a bit of a combat monster, don't underestimate how hamstrung he is as a hero by not being able to influence others with Stand Fast and Heroic Actions. That puts a massive dent in his effectiveness and greatly reduces the value (arguably) of his Might points.

With regard to Celebrimbor I would be tempted to go a bit over the top to be honest (even without the influence of the game). He is the last of the Noldor and of Feanor's bloodline isn't he? Didn't he originally dwell in Valinor? He is likely to be one of the single most powerful Elves in the lore (and I don't think GW have published rules for an Elf of his calibre before, not even Gil Galad, Galadriel or Elrond come close). I suspect it wouldn't be beyond him to bring down the odd Balrog. I would consider Fight 9, Defence 8 and a high Will with lots of spells. In terms of points I would put him close to 300 or more. I think he should be able to take on Sauron (provided he does not have the ring). I might be tempted to give him no Fate though (since he was fated to end in a pretty awful way).

In other news, am torn between converting Talion from the Aragorn as Ranger model or the Faramir as Ranger model. The Faramir one has the advantage of the white tree on his armour but the Aragorn one has absolutely the right pose. Any thoughts?
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
*sorry double post guys*
Author:  LordoftheBrownRing [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
NICE TOPIC AND PROFILE CHRIS! Ill make one too soon.

rigg1313 wrote:
I love the special rules you've created! And the points cost is about right. However I have been thinking about this profile myself and have thought perhaps he should be inline with the Ringwraith stat line for Defence and Wounds. By that I mean he should have that super high Defence but loose a couple of wounds, =
I have made a Celebrimbor (before he died) profile as well.

190 points

F S D A W C M W F
7 4 8 3 3 7 3 4 3

He has an elven blade, wears elven mithril armour, an elven ring of power (re-roll fate rolls), causes terror.
He can take a shield for 5 points.
He can take a horse for 10 points.
He can cast immobilise on 3+, command on 4+, aura of command 2+, aura of dismay 2+.

I think perhaps a spell or two should be dropped?


Nah, dont drop the spells....he took on and fought Sauron himself.

But as for the profile of Talion you made, with both of you, I politely disagree......

Id like for him to be like Beorn. Ill make a profile later. But he needs a rule where he can switch from man to wraith.

I actually still do like both of your ideas a lot though. Its be good to play test and tinker with them all.

JamesR wrote:
Haven't played the game (don't want to either), but the profiles seem to fall prey to the video games power bias. Is he really better than Aragorn? Because your profiles are better than Aragorn's.

Again I haven't played the game but I'd say he needs a serious drop in his profile IMO. If I were to follow exactly what the games do I'd have to make Berethor have 10 attacks and Farin have a rapid fire crossbow. Just my thoughts


In response to this and everything else you've said....well....your argument(no offense) just doesnt work.

First off....its a video game. Thats why its not logical.

Do you think ANYONE would buy a game where if you were Aragorn and got ambushed and every time there was a bunch of orcs you died and had to restart a level, anyone would purchase it?

And yeah, his is better than Aragorn in an alternate Middle Earth. The only same characters are like Gollum.....and Uruks....

Again, nobody would buy it if we played as Aragorn like in all the other games. The idea of a half man half wraith is fun, and as a lord of the rings fan, it was a blast.

And finally, no, your guy is not overpowered until late in the game. Through most of it if you face two decent captains and 25 uruks youll die if youre not perfect. I was killed by the same two in tandem with support about 10 times in the first half of the game. At the end, I could take 3 with elite troops no problem.

Let me put it this way to you. The average berserker in the game Shadow, SBG translated, would probably be:

Fight: 5 Strength: 5 Defense: 7 Attacks: 2 Wounds: 2 Courage: 8

The average weak orc probably:

Fight: 3 Strength: 3 Defense: 5 Attacks: 1 Wounds: 2 Courage: 3

Lets put it this way, at the very least, for you to understand, youd need to see an army book for the whole game.......
Author:  JamesR [ Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
LOTB I believe you misunderstand everything I posted because your points are completely agreeing with what I'm saying. I'm saying on video games your characters are basically on "power steroids" and that's fine for the video games. What my entire point was you can't take what they did in the video games and say "yup they need to be able to kill 20 orcs at one time just like in-game."

My examples were to show how SBG is built on the "toned down" power levels of the movies. And how Characters like Aragorn go "super-sayain" in the video games too, but their minis aren't way OP as a result
Author:  rigg1313 [ Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
ChrisGough wrote:

With regard to Celebrimbor I would be tempted to go a bit over the top to be honest (even without the influence of the game). He is the last of the Noldor and of Feanor's bloodline isn't he? Didn't he originally dwell in Valinor? He is likely to be one of the single most powerful Elves in the lore (and I don't think GW have published rules for an Elf of his calibre before, not even Gil Galad, Galadriel or Elrond come close). I suspect it wouldn't be beyond him to bring down the odd Balrog. I would consider Fight 9, Defence 8 and a high Will with lots of spells. In terms of points I would put him close to 300 or more. I think he should be able to take on Sauron (provided he does not have the ring). I might be tempted to give him no Fate though (since he was fated to end in a pretty awful way).



Gil-Galad was also Feanor's Grandson (Him and Celebrimbor had different fathers). There are still plenty of Noldor left? All the High elves ARE Noldor. He was born in Valinor, just like Celeborn, Galadriel, Cirion, Glorfindel so he is not that unique in that aspect. Glorfindel in Lotr lore is probably the most powerful of those, and in reality should be over 200points in game terms but that opens a whole new kettle of fish. 300 points may be blowing him out of proportion a little, as his fighting capabilities were never opening talked about in tolkiens writing, just his skill at crafting items of power and the fact he tried to hold the gates of Ost-In-Edhil alone against Sauron (Didn't go well...) which probably meant he was either really brave or really stupid.
Author:  ChrisGough [ Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
[/quote]

Gil-Galad was also Feanor's Grandson (Him and Celebrimbor had different fathers). There are still plenty of Noldor left? All the High elves ARE Noldor. He was born in Valinor, just like Celeborn, Galadriel, Cirion, Glorfindel so he is not that unique in that aspect. Glorfindel in Lotr lore is probably the most powerful of those, and in reality should be over 200points in game terms but that opens a whole new kettle of fish. 300 points may be blowing him out of proportion a little, as his fighting capabilities were never opening talked about in tolkiens writing, just his skill at crafting items of power and the fact he tried to hold the gates of Ost-In-Edhil alone against Sauron (Didn't go well...) which probably meant he was either really brave or really stupid.[/quote]

Ah. Well in that case I would stick with the profile you suggested. I also quite like the idea of an alternative version of Talion with the Wraith/Ranger split (then you could also convert two models and painting the wraith would be lots of fun). Hmm...
Author:  ChrisGough [ Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
So here's my attempt at a Talion conversion. I am no sculptor (or photographer for that matter) so have gone with a more "inspired by" rather than faithful recreation.

Image
Author:  Crucium Giger [ Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shadow of Mordor: Rules for Talion
I'm liking the look of that so far.
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