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How big should an army be?
http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28636		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  How big should an army be?
I was reading an article that Blackmist wrote on TLA a few years back about how to build a competitive army list, and I was just wondering what, in particular, had changed.

He wrote much about how numbers are important at the different points levels, and now that there is no 'model limit' as such, just with heroes being more compulsory, I was just wondering whether there seem to be trends with the size of forces. i.e., when taking a 600 point army, unless you are taking an all hero army, is there a 'minimum size' that you need to be competitive, or has the new system balanced this issue out?

Hopefully this makes sense, I'm just trying to create a tough list at 1000 points, and I'm attempting to gauge what I need from a numbers perspective.

All the best,
king
Author:  Azogtheterriblynice [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
I believe that 33 models (three two man warbands + heros) at 500 pts is optimum if you're playing all 6 of the LOTR source book scenarios. This is because you keep your breaking point reasonably high and have the numbers for scenarios like reconnoitre and domination but don't have ridiculous amounts of victory points to give away in lords of battle (this is different for the DOS scenarios as you need speed which will cost you more points per model).

So logically you'd double that for 1000 pts and have 66 models but at 1000 pts you'll want a large hero like Aragorn or one of the wizards and that'll push the total model count down a lot so if I was to put a number on it it would be around
50 models.
Author:  Valadorn [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
I think this is a very interesting thread. I wanted to make a similiar question.

Could you plz give the link of the TLA post you are referring cause i cannot find it!
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
I tend to aim for 30+ models at 500pts, and at least 50 for 1000 but tend to go for armies with more numbers. More dice = better IMO.
Author:  Coenus Scaldingus [ Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
With Hobbits, I want at least 50 guys (or 49 guys and Lobelia :P ) in there at 500pts, even with some allies.
With High Elves, I'd settle for 26 (two full warbands), as its almost the only option with such pricey figures.

Just saying 'it depends' doesn't quite cut it though. A nice way to look at it may be this: how big could you make the army with the most basic of troops and leaders? So for example just Dwarf captains and warriors (stay reasonable, give them a bit of equipment). Then, you can probably get away with sacrificing about a quarter of your force (in terms of models) to upgrading the remainder (better troops, named heroes, banners, etc.). Wouldn't quite say a quarter of the points, as expensive heroes can disrupt the image quite a bit. A bit more can be spent here if you'd otherwise be left with just enough points to get just a warband leader without troops to lead, although you can distribute the included troops as well, depending on the size of the force. Generally speaking: more is better, but you also will require some quality every now and then.

About 1-2 large monsters or heroes (>100pts) will be enough in nearly any force, possibly 3 in 1000pts. Most things are worth their points reasonably well, but combinations have to be optimal. Cheap troops are cheap for a reason, so be sure to take plenty of 'em.

[Disclaimer: just made the 'quarter' rule up, but I think something along those lines could be true for a variety of forces]
Author:  Hodush [ Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
Coen and SD are the main points I'd agree with: I prefer to have numbers over more elite armies, but as Coen says, you can afford to have less numbers if your troops are more elite in certain areas (Defence, Attack & Strength).

I would put the rule as this:
Warriors = Total points divided by 2 (EG 500 pts/2 = 250) then take 10% of that to give you 25 warriors.
You can add or reduce warriors by up to 20% of the warriors number and still expect to put up a decent fight against most armies. (EG: 20% of 25 is +/- 5 models).

Following this principle will allow you to select some solid heroes & monsters and retain a solid warrior core.

Here is a sample list which proves the point:
Elrond (Heavy Armour)
Gil-Galad (or Glorfindel)
18 High Elf warriors (with 1 wargear option each)
496pts, 18 troops, 2 big heroes, 6 might.

As High Elves are a more elite army, they will be expected to have a lower troop count around 16-20. As there aren't many options in the list which bring reliable diversity, you basically have the choice of going big on heroes or sticking with only captains (but who does that for High Elves!).

An all mounted rohan army will get you 2 good heroes and again around the 16-20 mark of mounted warriors, depending on wargear. On the other end of the scale, a troop heavy numenor can get you Isildur, 2 Captains and 36 troops (with wargear) at 500 pts. Following my suggested rules, you would end up with 30 numenoreans which leaves you 6 troops or 40-50 points to spend on banners or other wargear to suit your preference.

In the end it absolutely comes down to what you want the army to do - you can take even less troops than the 50% -20%, but you would need to make sure that whatever you are including instead is going to help your army out a lot. Conversely, if you add too many troops, you won't have enough game changers, so it is good to playtest to see what you need.
Author:  Valadorn [ Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
Nice examples for 500 pts, can you give advice for something bigger? I mean 700 - 750 - 800 ^^
Author:  Hodush [ Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
Valadorn - its pretty simple, just follow the magic formula, most people will do it without trying. @ 750 points, I'm aiming for 38 troops or at least 3 warbands.

750 pts Mordor
Witch King, Morgul Crown, Morgul Blade, Horse
12 Morannon Orcs (6 Shield, 6 Shield & Spear)

Shagrat, War Leader
12 Morannon Orcs (Shield)
Orc Shaman
12 Morannon Orcs (Shield & Spear)

Kardush
4 Orcs with spear
High Strength, High Defence army with fury, 2 good combat heroes (+ witchkings spells for taking out heroes/monsters) & kardush to blow stuff up. Lacking monsters and some hard hitters which aren't heroes, but nicely balanced otherwise IMO. You can easily swap out kardush and some wargear for a troll chief.

So other than the formula, I am just trying to make sure I am able to deal with things as best I can, namely: High Attack heroes, monsters and of course making sure I can fight at least as well as the enemy troops. If you can't deal with one of those things, you just make sure you are overpowering them in another area.
Author:  Tourin TLA [ Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
Thanks for posting the magic formula.
So therefore for a 600 pt (cough TOS) a model count of between 30-40 is suitable depending on the army [Horde (goblins) versus Elite (All Mounted RIVENDELL!)]?

Valadorn wrote:
Could you plz give the link of the TLA post you are referring cause i cannot find it!


I would also like to read this post.

Thanks
Author:  Kingofkhazad [ Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
http://www.thelastalliance.com/viewtopi ... able+might

There's the link, it's a brilliant, brilliant article. In an ideal world we could get Mik to write a similar one on the new warbands layout, and whether this changes some of the fundamentals of the game... please :)
Author:  cereal_theif [ Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
I completely disagree with the formula thing.
700pts if I walked in with 35 models I'd get battered in most games with most armies. It is too middle of the road.

The key is balance.
500pts stockport
1st 3 models
2nd 52 models ish
3rd Dr Grant? I never played you in the end so don't know 100% but I think it was 24 models
4th 6 models
5th 26 (ish) models
6th 4 models
7th 26 ish models

So at 500pts you expect 25 models by your reasoning but many armies did well with much less or much more. Infact on the top 2 tables only 1 army was 25ish models in the final game.

I usually aim for a balance.

500pts
25 models is safe
600pts
40 models is safe
1000pts
undecided but around 50-70 models is safe

But safe only means "you are not going to be outnumbered so bad you die from weight of numbers" it does not mean you will not be opened by a can opener
Author:  Tourin TLA [ Thu May 01, 2014 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
Kingofkhazad wrote:
http://www.thelastalliance.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3561&hilit=disposable+might

There's the link, it's a brilliant, brilliant article. In an ideal world we could get Mik to write a similar one on the new warbands layout, and whether this changes some of the fundamentals of the game... please :)


Thanks for the Link :) Excellent read.

Does the question "How big should an army be?" refer to general friendly games or competitive friendly tournament games?
Author:  Hodush [ Fri May 02, 2014 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
cereal_theif, of course, I agree with you - the better results are normally found by going one way or the other from the centreline (hence why I babbled on about the extra 10%-ish). The only thing I will really argue is that to place 6th with 25 points is not bad, considering most games would have been quite close I suspect.

Using the formula is good to help people be able to make small changes and see what the effects are - I see too many newer people going with elite armies or heroes & armies which don't really go all that well together and because of their inexperience they are beaten fairly consistently, so that is my intention behind the "magic formula" - to get people thinking more about what works together, not just what can be squeezed into the points available.
Author:  Frêrin [ Fri May 02, 2014 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
To make the "magic formula" a little bit easier: Take 4%-6% of the total points ;)

But I don't think you can use a formula to say an army has enough models or not.
I think it's all about winning the scenarios. If you have something in your army to win every scenario, you don't have to think about your model count. For example if you have a ringwraith and a barrow-wight you don't have to worry about having to many models in lords of battle.
Author:  Coenus Scaldingus [ Fri May 02, 2014 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How big should an army be?
Aye, the armies that do well in Domination aren't usually the ones which do well in Lords of Battle. Given unknown scenarios, a truly balanced force is best, but if you know beforehand that every scenario requires as many models as possible...
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