Siege towers, Nazgul on Fellbeasts, Mumakil battering down weakened sections of wall - there is a lot of scope for making a siege scenario very unboring.
Especially a massed cavalry charge coming in from the flank
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| Can Trebuchets break down gates? http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28114 |
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| Author: | TDrik [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Does the angle of trajectory need to be taken into account with trebuchets? Also, if minas tirith is under siege and the enemy have both a battering ram and a trebuchet, could they just break down the gate from a safe distance with the trebuchet rather than risk men trying to swing the battering ram? I suppose it seems possible, but it also kind of feels against the spirit of the siege rules. What do you guys/girls think? |
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| Author: | legion [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Lol I think you might be overcomplicating the game. the short answer is that the Gate is a separate target and therefore, yes you can target it. There is no accounting for trajectory however you could argue that if a model is underneath something then that model cannot be shot at. But a Gate is a rather large siege target and therefore it would be difficult to make such a rule for that. |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Not to mention that it would not require a perfect direct hit to damage the gates. As Legion says, it's a battlefield target so it's fair game. Also it's far from "against the spirit of the siege rules" it's actually exactly what the rules are going for |
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| Author: | TDrik [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
So if I were attacking minas tirith then I would essentially have no need for a battering ram? |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
TDrik wrote: So if I were attacking minas tirith then I would essentially have no need for a battering ram? Correct, it would certainly save you on your troops dying lol |
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| Author: | TDrik [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
That's annoying. That's going to make the fight a lot easier for my friend (he's the evil side). Although I suppose it will mean he isn't attacking my men as much either as he will be concentrating on the gate rather than on the ramparts. |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Your opponent will have a plenty hard time assaulting your fortification |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Hmm, the Evil side doesn't have any trebuchets though, I think you mean catapults. On a related note, in one of the BGIME magazines there is a Minas Tirith siege scenario in which the tactic advice given to the evil side is to use their catapults to fire at the gates. It's a nice scenario too... |
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| Author: | TDrik [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote: Hmm, the Evil side doesn't have any trebuchets though, I think you mean catapults. On a related note, in one of the BGIME magazines there is a Minas Tirith siege scenario in which the tactic advice given to the evil side is to use their catapults to fire at the gates. It's a nice scenario too... You're right, my mistake. This actually makes more sense. I'm guessing the catapults have less range than the trebuchets, which means that if they want to get in range to break down the gate then my trebuchets will already be firing at them breakign them down. It will probably be in his best interests to bring a battering ram just in case. Or do they have equal range? Or perhaps even the other way round? |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Look in the source books. Catapaults used to match the normal range but Trebuchets could upgrade to improve their range |
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| Author: | Grungehog [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Read this Battle report I was the evil side. Very much relevant to this discussion. http://greendragonhobbies.proboards.com ... scrollTo=9 |
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| Author: | TDrik [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
It turns out they have the same range. I don't know. Sounds wrong to me. I always trebuchets far out reach normal catapults, but rules are rules I guess. If a catapult misses, is the shot ignored or do you need to roll to see where the shot actually landed? Something D6 inches to the left, right, north south? Doesn't say in the rules, but I'm not sure if it's that realistic. |
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| Author: | Sithious [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
I played a old scenario where my Morannon orcs had to get past a gate to take some objectives on the other side. We only received 4 ladders (no siege ballista, no ram). It took 10 turns to get the gate open. Going up ladders was pointless as nobody was ever able to kill an enemy on the wall (1 orc vrs. 2 or 3 defenders each time) to get up on it, ladders would then be knocked down (and then take a full volley each shoot phase too). That was a very long game. After that I think that if given the options I would take the ram and the trebuchet so that I had a back up and would have no sympathy if it (the gate) got destroyed within a couple turns. |
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| Author: | Dr Grant [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
It all depends why you're playing the game really. If it's a win at all costs game then yeah, the gate's fair game. However, by their very nature sieges tend to be slightly special games and often need some extra rules for the scenario (particularly in the Hobbit rules where the siege section has been reduced). I agree with you that them firing against the gate sounds wrong, it might not be against the spirit of genuine siege tactics but it is against the spirit of recreating the assault on Minas Tirith. If I was you I'd just house rule that Trebuchet's can't target the gate. Simples. If your opponent refuses because he wants to win at all costs then a fun narrative scenario battle probably isn't the game for him. |
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| Author: | Grungehog [ Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
To be fair Once the gate is broken, the defender still has the advantage tactically speaking, as they can just funnel you down, if you're attacking dwarves, that can still present quite a tough nut to crack kinda like a metaphorical black walnut, you really to get the hammers out to break that! |
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| Author: | TDrik [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Thanks for all the information. It's seems pretty clear cut. True that the gate is a complete bottleneck. If you get the right soldiers in there to defend in time then you could hold out for a while. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
If you're creating a siege game, and the gate is the only way in, you're in for a boring grind of a game. A siege works better if you have multiple objectives, and/or timed events that change things up. There are other players who post here who do these regularly, hopefully they'll chime in. I've only done a couple, but the most successful one was a fortified city/dockside: The city was 1/4 of the board, with open fields and woodland terrain for the other 3/4s. When the scenario started, Uruk battering rams were within one movement of the main gate, while goblin sappers were busy working on another part of the wall. The goblin sappers would punch through in the End Phase on a Turn# + d6 = 6 (ie: max of turn 6) which would destroy part of the wall giving another way in. However, at that point a horn would be blown in the city, and reinforcements (elves inside the city, and Rohan outside) would be available in d3 turns. Also in the woods furthest from the city was a strike force of Ithilien rangers harassing the main attacking troops. Finally, after the wall was collapsed Denethor had to get from the gate to the docks, but at some randomly determined moment a force of Corsairs might arrive by boat. The Lords of Battle scenario was used as a base structure, plus extra points for setting fire to buildings inside the city, or burning ships at the docks. I guess the main point is, if you're going to plan something like this, make sure there are plenty of things to do other than crowding around the gate. |
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| Author: | Dorthonion [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Siege towers, Nazgul on Fellbeasts, Mumakil battering down weakened sections of wall - there is a lot of scope for making a siege scenario very unboring. Especially a massed cavalry charge coming in from the flank
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| Author: | Grungehog [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
And of course tons of Spiders, as they can just crawl over the battlements
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| Author: | Celevue [ Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Can Trebuchets break down gates? |
Give the gate of Minas Tirith defense value above & beyond the normal chart (e.g. D = 15) and plenty of battering points / resilience, so that trebuchets / catapults would be quite ineffective. Then give Grond an equally impressive strength figure, so that it is the only effective means of breaking down the gate. |
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