Look at the bright side; if an Orc Captain uses heroic strike against Aragorn, he benefits from Feint.
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| Fixing Heroic Strike http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27393 |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Fixing Heroic Strike |
So recently I presented this question to the GBHL team in their "Speak Friend and Question" video (btw if you haven't checked them out yet I would highly recommend their YouTube Channel) adn I wanted to know what the community at large thought. I do not like Heroic Strikes as they currently stand, because it punishes the higher FV heroes, for example (and perhaps the best example) Gil-galad. Example: An Orc Captain is engaging Gil-galad in combat and calls a heroic strike and rolls a 6, bringing him to fight 10. Gil-galad, if he decides to respond in kind can only boost his FV to a 10 to tie the Orc Captain even though anything beyond a 1 would boost him above 10. What I like about the rule as it stands: The Orc can choose to expend a point of might to raise his fight to above Gil-galad if the Elf lord chooses not to respond in kind. What I dislike about the rule: While Gil-galad will automatically become Fight 10 if he calls a heroic, the fact that he is F9 to begin with is kind of lost in this instant and his might point effectively is "less valuable" than the Orcs as it cannot bring about much change. My proposed change: Remove the F10 cap and allow for Characters like Gil-galad to effectively still trump their lower FV counter-parts if they choose to expend a point of might, rather than simply equalling them. GBHL's Proposed change: Change the +D6 to FV to +D3. Which is also a good idea, it severly lowers the amount of units that can boost to Fight 10 and cause the scenario listed above. So having read all of that what do YOU think? Should Heroic Strikes be changed? Are any of the above solutions the "answer"? Or perhaps a combination of the two? |
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| Author: | Tezzy [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
I think you are overstating the effect of Heroic Strike to be honest. An Orc Captain is spending 1 of his 2 might just on the chance he can get better fight than Gil-Gilad, and if he wins he will have two attacks wound on a 6. Meanwhile Gil-Gilad can just follow up the next turn (or if he won the original fight) and have 3 attacks wounding on a 4+. I understand that you think its bad, maybe because a mere orc can beat a First Age elf in combat, but really the Orc Captain is just getting a chance to wound, which he probably won't anyways... but on the chance he does, Gil-Gilad still has wounds left. I personally haven't had any cases where heroic strike has been amazing, but I like that it exists. It can make scenarios where a hero like Gandalf actually has a chance to fight Balrog or a similarly powerful hero (for a turn or two) without resorting to spellcasting. Lord of the Rings is full of all sorts of turns of events where an underhanded hero gets a sudden lucky hit. Could Lurtz's model have any chance in combat against the Strider? No not really, but with heroic strike he might be able to put on a wound or two in one turn. If anything I think its more unrealistic that Legolas would run from a fight when the Men of Gondor fled, if Aragorn and Gimli still remain... which happened to my opponent in my last match XD. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
Agree with Tezzy, I don't think it needs fixing. Might is precious, the only time an Orc would waste it like that is if he already has Gil-Galad surrounded or on the ropes |
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| Author: | Gondorian Captain [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
Have to say I think Heroic strike is one of the best additions they've made to the game. Makes might points even more valuable, thus they need to be expended carefully. It also makes fights that classicly were write offs (eg fight 7 troll against fight 6 heroes) much more interesting. Doesn't need fixing in my opinion. |
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| Author: | Hodush [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
I wouldn't say that it NEEDS fixing, but it does make a lot of elite heroes, mostly on the good side, less viable than they used to be and I think for enjoyment and believability purposes a standard orc captain should not be able to out-duel a high king of elves with a thousand years of experience in combat. The plus side of good used to be that their heroes used to be quite difficult to kill and mad a large impact on the game (as is right if 1/3 of the army points is 1 hero). Heroic strike really serves to make the heroes easier to kill/stop, which is good, don't get me wrong, but it is too efficient at the moment in my opinion. I would like to see it changed to D3. I don't really agree that might is precious - not for evil anyway. They have cheap enough heroes and troops to be able to take more captains without drastically altering the army. Evil has a full range of normal to elite heroes to be able to balance it whatever way they want and good doesn't really have this unless you mix Minas Tirith with High Elves, which isn't really what I want to do. Also, as you can only benefit from one heroic action, it limits the heroes chance to carve through regular troops. For Elendil you pay those extra points on his profile for a free heroic combat, but all it takes is for one captain to roll a 3+ and he's done. Lets face it, if you aren't surrounding with evil you are either doing it wrong or you have an elite army which is probably beating the snot out of the good rank & file so you can afford a few turns before surrounding a hero becomes a priority. |
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| Author: | hollowcrown [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
Maybe they should just double the fight value? That means if you needed to win a key combat, and both players decide to use might, the more "elite" hero will always win, but if an Orc Captain is fighting a Gimli who has run out of might for instance, he can use his remaining might to win the combat. An Orc Captain could go up to 8 fight value and outfight most normal troops and heroes, but Aragorn could go up to 12. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
Hodush wrote: I wouldn't say that it NEEDS fixing, but it does make a lot of elite heroes, mostly on the good side, less viable than they used to be and I think for enjoyment and believability purposes a standard orc captain should not be able to out-duel a high king of elves with a thousand years of experience in combat. Well, the orc needs a 6 to out-duel, and a 5 to tie. I just can't see too many people using it for that. If you "fix" it for the extreme, you're breaking it for the majority. |
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| Author: | Dr Grant [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
I'm a big fan of Heroic Strike, I can see where you're coming from with the no upper cap and where the guys from GBHL are coming form with it being D3 but I think it works fine as it is. In your example of the orc captain against Gil Galad (which is about as extreme an example as you can get) the orc's got to spend a Might point for a chance to roll a 6 AND then win the 50/50 roll off, not great odds and if I was the evil player I wouldn't be wasting Might on such a long shot. If I was the Good player and he did strike up I might be inclined to not even counter with Gil Galad as there's only a 1/6 chance of him winning and 1/6 chance of him drawing. I think it's added a nice element to the game, gives lowly heroes a nice shot against monsters which is well balanced out by the Brutal Power Attacks. Me likey. Each to their own and all that though. |
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| Author: | JamesR [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
Totally agree that for the most part it works out fine. And yes the example was the most extreme I could think of lol, there's just something about only being able to tie by expending that point of might with Gil-galad that makes it seem wrong (assuming the orc got to fight 10) |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
JamesR wrote: Totally agree that for the most part it works out fine. And yes the example was the most extreme I could think of lol, there's just something about only being able to tie by expending that point of might with Gil-galad that makes it seem wrong (assuming the orc got to fight 10) Sure, but the power curve in this game is very flat. I mean, on each attack, a Balrog has a 33% chance of *not* wounding a Hobbit. Conversely, no one in the game is untouchable, thankfully. |
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| Author: | GothmogtheWerewolf [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
You can't fix something that isn't broken. |
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| Author: | Tezzy [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
Look at the bright side; if an Orc Captain uses heroic strike against Aragorn, he benefits from Feint.
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| Author: | Hodush [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
An orc captain facing Boromir only needs a 2 to draw and a 3 to win. He's as good as dead anyway if he is facing him in combat so there's not really any reason to hold back. You are basically draining might from the hero for no cost. I guess I just don't like that it is so easy to overcome major figures in middle earth (either immediately or in the long run as their might store dwindles just to stay in a fight). If said orc was facing Gandalf, the consequences are a lot more dire for the wizard as he can't rely on defence to keep him alive. Maybe the winner of the duel should get their might back if they personally kill the other hero 
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| Author: | Zarathustra Suicuine [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
It is nice for the aforementiond bit of lettign minor heroes deal with monsters, as that is part of their job, but it does seem ridiculous the ease with which an orc can suddenly outskill the likes of Glonfindal, Boromir, durin ect, especially in a lot of cases where the high fight value is what they pay for.~ Say make it D3, and also lower each monsters F by one so that the generic captains still have a chance to take them out or hold them up? |
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| Author: | Coenus Scaldingus [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
Been wondering about this for a while now, my initial reaction was that it was much too powerful and that some creatures simply shouldn't be able to actually outfight others. Most heroes/monsters have a number of attacks so limited that they definitely won't get a 6 each turn, which means that any enemy, and especially whole groups of them, will win eventually anyway. Looking at some GBHL batreps, I did notice how it generally is pretty decent and not too bad, but still aren't convinced. A D3 bonus has my preference, so that you can only outfight somebody at least in your league, and have lower chances of doing so. I like it better than removing the cap, as that would mean high-Fight heroes still have to spend might to ensure a win, and seeing how Gil-galad only has the same amount of might as Grishnákh... whafrog wrote: Conversely, no one in the game is untouchable, thankfully. Never played with a Hobbit army against Sauron?  Thankfully, they can have the (relatively) amazing Battlin' Brandybucks now - not to mention axe special strikes - as otherwise, S1 stones and S2 arrows/melee attacks aren't going to do much against D10...
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| Author: | whafrog [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: whafrog wrote: Conversely, no one in the game is untouchable, thankfully. Never played with a Hobbit army against Sauron? Thankfully, they can have the (relatively) amazing Battlin' Brandybucks now - not to mention axe special strikes - as otherwise, S1 stones and S2 arrows/melee attacks aren't going to do much against D10...Okay...once again, an extreme example, which doesn't justify a rule fix...unless in this case allowing 6/6 to wound anything. |
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| Author: | Gildor_Inglorion [ Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fixing Heroic Strike |
After playing a few more games and remembering the new heroics, Ive decided I really like it. In the books it emphasises much more how even major heroes (Aragorn, Boromir etc...) have a real fight on their hands to slay even a lowly orc or goblin captain - I think this rule nicely shows that. Aragorn or Boromir will come out on top eventually if theyre fresh, but they'll have had to put some work in to do it. |
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