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Hurl / Rend / Barge
http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25092		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Hurl / Rend / Barge
Ok...so there's at least one dedicated thread and many side mentions of how powerful Hurl is. We haven't played with the new rules ourselves yet but am a bit surprised at this one being so heavily focused on and wanted to chat about them here.

First, I love the potential use of Sorcerous Blast for setting up a turn. If your wizard moves and blasts some enemy forces down, you can then charge them or not, in addition to any potential damage they take.

But with Hurl you are already in the Fight phase. Yeah, there's a lot of value in throwing a target model and maybe knocking down some others (personally I think if this is happening as much as it sounds then people are leaving themselves set up to this). But the option to move and charge is already over (unless an Heroic Combat somehow follows this). So you're not able to really maximize the knocked down models unless you're always throwing into Fights. That has potential of injuring your own models as well. And again you can probably minimize risk here during play. Hurl is good, no doubt, but I did't think it would be such a "Win!" that it would be what sounds like a default choice in the community.

Barge is something that I see as a niche attack but really surprised no one has found good use of it yet. No one has found good reasons to use this? It really sounds like a great chance to break a shield wall open, for example, not to mention either avoiding or engaging a specific target that would otherwise have Zone Of Control issues. Maybe not used every game but I could see it having a place some...but no one has mentioned it that I've seen.

But Rend is the one I thought I'd hear the most complaints or brags about. The lowly Cave or Mordor Troll doing a Rend on a Dwarf or High Elf Hero would seem more effective than Hurling them. But I just haven't seen anyone really talk about using Rend or having it used against them.

So...what are your table top experiences or other thoughts on the issue?
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Rend is amazing on the High D stuff like Durin, Dain, Dragon w/ TH. Use it only for killing heroes or other monsters really.

I have found hurl best used when the monster attacks the flank and throws down the line knocking over any spear support. Or it is good to use when someone tries to feed you a model, throw it into something else and go for the extra kills.

Dont really use barge, I would rather kill what I'm fighting than push it away.
Author:  Draugluin [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Barge is really only good when you have a banner or a weak support hero, like a shaman or a stormcaller or something, close to the monster. I used Barge with the Balrog a few weeks ago to try to get to Saruman, but I rolled an inch short. I did end up engaging him in combat the next turn, but by then he was being assisted by a troll, who very promptly died.

I personally haven't had a real chance to use Rend yet, as the only opponent that I've played using the new rules uses Isengard.

Hurl is only OP if your opponent is stupid enough to try to feed a troll or something, and also leave his pikeblock right next to that combat.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
That's what it seemed to me...the opponent's choices really mean a lot when it comes to how effective Hurl is. I have never played with a "block" formation. It's just not my style for any army. So maybe that's why I just can't see it being a big threat to me. It really must matter who you are playing against.
Author:  madtankdog [ Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
The group I game with have all started using the 3 new rules and as per other thread re some q's about hurling, we have found benefits with all of them

" hurl and barge " , now predominantly prevent players from sacrificing single figs to halt monster moves and my opponents are very reluctant to keep block armies and expensive heroes nearby :D
Particularly as rend will nearly always kill a hero especially if can get some transfix, immobilise magic working prior to fight 8)

Unfortunately still some Uber "Dwarf" heroes which my monsters cannot crack :x
Author:  Thermo [ Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Experienced "hurl" for the first time yesterday and really liked the dynamic as the order of combats became very important. Wasn't over powered either in my opinion, but must admit I was surprised my riders weren't thrown or atleast have to take a test after being tossed 4inches!
Author:  whafrog [ Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
I think there was a thread of agreement that cavalry knocked prone are automatically dismounted.
Author:  Thermo [ Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
whafrog wrote:
I think there was a thread of agreement that cavalry knocked prone are automatically dismounted.


Makes sense, or to at the very least roll for it! Luckily for me, we didn't do this yesterday but think it's right to in the future, even if it isn't written in the rules.
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Situation: Great Goblin is stranded amongst some rocks and outnumbered by Haradrim warriors

Solution: Barges all 11 of them back, is free to charge a bunch of archers camping on the precious objective.

They are all great, it's really nice that monsters are important models now :)
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Still working on the full write up, but had a recent game where I used Treebeard with some Wood Elves vs. Moria. The only time I took advantage of the special attack rule was when a lot of Goblins and some Giant Spiders surrounded me. I won the Fight but would only be able to kill a couple Goblins at the most and risk being back in the same bad position next turn. So I did a Barge, knocked everyone back a few inches then managed to charge the Giant Spider and one Goblin, killing both in the follow up fight. This actually put me at the outer edge of the charge zone for the remaining Goblins in that area, and eliminated a couple of them pretty much ensuring I could not be surrounded again the next turn.

For the rest of the game Treebeard was very happy doing his normal attacks though I was keeping these in my mind in case they came up again later. Having the ability to Barge really kept him useful as my opponent knew he had to deal with him seriously and couldn't just speed bump me.
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Don't forget that hurl can be used for more than just throwing models into other models. You could throw them off an edge for a lot of falling damage, or throw a hero into the general direction of your own troops, away from any support from their own troops.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Theik wrote:
Don't forget that hurl can be used for more than just throwing models into other models. You could throw them off an edge for a lot of falling damage, or throw a hero into the general direction of your own troops, away from any support from their own troops.


I really like that last one. One of my favorite things about the Sentinel songs is not sending a foe scurrying away (though I do that often) as much as drawing a foe in closer for some proper thrashing on MY terms. The thought of chucking a Hero over to a vulnerable, isolated position is really nice. Just be careful you don't throw it in such a way that it might hit and hurt some of your own troops. :roll:
Author:  theavenger001 [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Beowulf03809 wrote:
Just be careful you don't throw it in such a way that it might hit and hurt some of your own troops. :roll:

Well, if it's a cave troll doing the hurling, and there's a few goblins in the way.... :roll: Especially if you've got some prowlers and a batswarm to pounce on the hero the next turn. 8)
Author:  Theik [ Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Beowulf03809 wrote:
I really like that last one. One of my favorite things about the Sentinel songs is not sending a foe scurrying away (though I do that often) as much as drawing a foe in closer for some proper thrashing on MY terms. The thought of chucking a Hero over to a vulnerable, isolated position is really nice. Just be careful you don't throw it in such a way that it might hit and hurt some of your own troops. :roll:


It's not that big a deal if you throw it at expendable troops like goblins. Don't forget that they take a hit for each thing they go through, nothing beats forcing them to burn all their hero's fate on not dying when they're hurled through a pack of goblins, only to be killed anyways the next turn by the remaining goblins.
Author:  Galanur [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Good units to killl monsters now? dwarf axe wielder users like durin and Dain or even Gimli or Balin lol, since the monster will strike the strength rather than defence, go watch durin attacking with up to S7 and minimum D6 :P
Author:  theavenger001 [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Galanur wrote:
Good units to killl monsters now? dwarf axe wielder users like durin and Dain or even Gimli or Balin lol, since the monster will strike the strength rather than defence, go watch durin attacking with up to S7 and minimum D6 :P

Ah yeah, plus strength and minus defence, that's a really intuitive tactic. I like it. 8)
Author:  LordElrond [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Which would be more effective to break up phalanxes?
Author:  SuicidalMarsbar [ Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Barge.
Author:  theavenger001 [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
LordElrond wrote:
Which would be more effective to break up phalanxes?

Hurl. If you get it right you an take out a whole row of support, or go diagonally through the group and get a cross section. If you knock down the whole front row, the phalanxe is in a bad spot.
Author:  Theik [ Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hurl / Rend / Barge
Galanur wrote:
Good units to killl monsters now? dwarf axe wielder users like durin and Dain or even Gimli or Balin lol, since the monster will strike the strength rather than defence, go watch durin attacking with up to S7 and minimum D6 :P


Don't quote me on this, but I believe you only gain the increased strength if you win the fight and the decreased defence if you lose the fight.

So if the monster wins the fight, Durin would be at strength 4, defence 6-8 and rend would still tear him to shreds. A better solution at killing monsters would be to to immobilize/command them so they can't shred you in the first place I think.
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