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500 point anti dwarves
http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20255		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  500 point anti dwarves
My aponent (although I havn't played him for a long time) is a keen dwarf player. He always uses teh same tactics and I always struggle. Although I do win half the time, they are always very close games and when I do lose, its an absolute disaster. He likes to use two banners, have at least 1 uber hero and has a couple of vault wardens leaving the rest with dwarf warriors. It does have an impact on his numbers he is always on the defensive taking advantage of his terrain. We usually play 500 points so I was thinking about an evil army that would be purlye made as a real kick in the balls for the dwarves. In my inventory of troops I have:
Mordor
Isengard
Easties
Giant spiders and small number of gobbs
Although I am a keen supporter of themed armies, I was just wondering if I can make a list (can be stretched but not too badly) that would be used as a real anti dwarf list. Any suggestions?
Author:  emperor_thompson [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
Does he usually have many archers? If he is short on numbers, you may be able to outshoot him, forcing him to come to you and attack you on your terms. They are dwarves, though, so you may need quite a few more archers to win a shoot-out.

Easterlings are a good option. Their high defence will offer them a lot of protection. If you use them with orcs, you could send the orcs against the vault wardens and hero, and easterlings against the standard troops. Remember, dwarves don't get spears, which gives Easterlings an enormous advantage. If you can isolate his banners and take them out, all the better. Cavalry are good at this (banners can't be passed by someone on the ground).
Author:  spuds4ever [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
If he dosen't have a lot of guys, he can't have many shots, Giant Spiders would do well against dwarves being much more flexible and wounding the dwarves on 5+. I would personally try hit and run attacks with the spiders and retreating when his vault wardens reach the picture.
Author:  whafrog [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
I had pretty good luck against dwarves with a mix of Mahud on (some on camels) and Corsairs. With Corsairs I was able to move full, stand 5.5" away and throw without the dwarves being able to charge.

S4 doubles your odds against D6 troops but doesn't change against D7, so if he fields relatively few D6 warriors you're probably better off going with cheaper S3 troops like Easterlings than Uruk-hai... but then you lose out on Fight...A bit of catch-22. A mix of Morannons and spiders might work, if you can keep the spiders safe.
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
Cool thanks guys, Putting some of your ideas I havefour basic armies:
What do you guys think?

SPIDER AND WARG ARMY
-Spider Queen
-3 Giant Spiders
-Gothmog on Warg
-Orc Captain on Warg
-12 Warg Riders with Shields
PROS
-Very fast
-Uber hero with lots of might
-Spiders can outflank any terrain barrier
CONS
-Low on numbers
-No Magic

RINGWRAITH AND WARG ARMY
-Ringwraith with horse and 9 will
-Ringwraith with horse and 8 will
-Gothmog with Warg
-Orc Captain with Warg and Shield
-12 Warg Riders with Shields
PROS
-Very fast
-Uber heroes
-Lots of magic
CONS
-Will hit and run be enough?
-Low numbers

PHALANX ARMY
-Ringwraith with horse
-2 Uruk-Hai Captains with Shields
-2 Uruk Banners
-12 Uruk Pikemen
-6 Uruk shieldmen
-11 Orc spearmen
PROS
-Solid numbers
-Phalanx
-Banners
-Magic
CONS
-No Flanking troops or elites

CROSSBOW ARMY
-Uruk Captain with Shield
-1 Uruk Banner
-12 Uruk-Hai Crossbows
-8 Uruks with Shields
-12 Uruks with Pikes
-12 Orcs with spears
PROS
-Strong archery even for dwarves
-Phalanx
-Large numbers
CONS
-Low on might and heroes
-Totaly relys if he does not take any archers
Author:  BlackReaper [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
Ooh,all the list are nice(in my eyes,lol) but I'd personally pick the last one.(pikes and spears against dwarves with a a nice portion of X-bows to back em up,hoo diggy).Depending on the map(and if he takes archers or not) I'd say make a nice wall in front of a ramp or what ever with your archers and do what he usually does,play on the defensive(you can't really go wrong,I personally like these smaller games but I don't think you'd need to worry to much about no heroes or might)
Author:  whafrog [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
IMHO the only one that will work is the last one. The others have way too many points in heroes.
Author:  emperor_thompson [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
He has a very high defense army, with small numbers. Your first two armies were low in numbers, but also low in defense. What this means is, when he loses a fight, he may lose a warrior. If you lose a fight, you'll lose your army fast.

Don't underestimate the effectiveness of warrior armies. With the last army, and the advantage of numbers, you can surround and trap his forces. 12 crossbows sounds like a pretty convincing archer force, and if he is short on numbers, all the better. I know D7 dwarves are still wounded on 6s, but 12 crossbows means ~6 hits/1 kill per turn. Take out warriors (archers if possible), then he'll have an even harder time against your numbers. When he gets close to you (and he will be charging), it might be a good idea to get those crossbowmen into fights. Use them to tie up the 4S dwarves, that way he won't have much chance of wounding your D6 warriors (I'll assume he'll get one attack against each of them).
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
Thanks guys, I am convinced by your arguements and I will go for the last list, although the real problem is how to overcome his uber impossible hero? I had one feeling was to replace the uruk captain with vrasku...
Author:  BlackReaper [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
Well what hero is it? Btw,you had better post a battle report because this sounds like it might be a pretty epic fight
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
Evil is always going to have this problem, because for the most part the Good heroes are better. It does no good to counter strength with strength, it just becomes a dice-off. You have enough xbows to volley, so target his banners and uber-hero (you still only need a 6 for D8, and banners will fall on a 5+). It would be a boring game, but the reality is if he wants to hunker down, you could win by volleying, so he has to come out (depending on the scenario). Then you have numbers on your side. When you engage, send in a few sacrifices to tie up and isolate his hero...with shielded uruks, you can take on 2 or more models and shield...you won't strike any wounds, but you have pretty good odds of surviving because you have the same Fight and are D6. Then surround his hero with lots of spear and pike support. At some point he'll have to spend Might to win, and when he runs out...well, even only 6 guys should be able to cause a wound.

Vrasku is a better option IMHO, but I wouldn't put him in the fray, he's better off getting critical shots to open up tactical options for the rest. He should focus on getting rid of banners and elites. Keeping him out of harm's way also means he'll be around if you need his standfast. For standfast Ugluk is even better, but you might want to drop the banner and take a lot more orcs :)
Author:  Noddwyr [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
xbows cant volley can they? I am pretty sure they cant
Second point I would make is to drop the captain, banner and xbows then get saruman and fill up the rest of the points with uruks w.shield which will make it easy to deal with the hero plus saruman can kill alot with s.blast.
Author:  whafrog [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
Noddwyr wrote:
xbows cant volley can they? I am pretty sure they cant


:oops: what was I thinking?
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
saruman ftw
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
Thanks guys, I've been hearing that Saruman is really worth his points, I have never had good experiance with him but Im willing to give him another go. But in doing so I'll be sacrificing all my x-bows and combat heroes.
Author:  Shadowswarm [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
what makes him so great is that his spells are easy to cast (SB on a 4+!!!!!!!) and long range (18" transfix!! (everyone else is 12"range))
Author:  BlackMist [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
It's evil Saruman, not the good one. Evil's transfix range is 12" and SB cast on 5+ ;)

There is no reason to drop xbows if you want to take Saruman, in fact he works better with a defensive force:

In my GT 2010 Isengard list which finished 2nd at that tourney I used:
Saruman on Horse
Grima
Shadow Lord
17 Crossbowmen
16 Naked Orcs
18 Orcs with Spears

Since you're playing 500 with a 50 model limit, I would cut this to:

Saruman on Horse
14 Crossbowmen
15 Naked Orcs
15 Orcs with Spears

(or 14 shields, 14 spears if you don't have the naked ones). You should be able to destroy the Dwarves without any problems.
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 500 point anti dwarves
That one looks interesting... I'll try do a few test games myself and see how they go.
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