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| orc bow... http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12938 |
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| Author: | eBob [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | orc bow... |
I played a game yesterday, and I used 18 goblin archers as proxies for orc trackers - just to test them out as an option. But I wasn't impressed. They were only firing at Rohirrim - but did they hit anything? did the heck as like. Despite hand-fulls of dice and loads of hits - the orc bow strength of 2 is just pathetic. In the end I charged them in and scored loads of kills in the good old fashioned way. I just think even bothering with worrying about orc bow is such a waste of time - they seem wholly incapable of achieving anything useful - especially since after turn 3 when most models are in combat - archery is pretty much not possible anyway. Anybody here really like orc bows and had successes? I've taken down some cavalry horses once - but it was lucky dice all the way. |
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| Author: | lorderkenbrand [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:15 am ] |
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Totally agree! Orc bows for the most part are utter garbage and investing in 18 orcs with shield or spear is much wiser. In early May I had a 1000 point Pelennor Fields battle and used about 20 orc archers. Over five turns of shooting and retreating they managed less than 5 kills 
On the other hand I do find them handy in small games, were you roll a couple of dice for a group of 3-4 of them. I just tend to have more luck that way especially when firing at heroes. |
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| Author: | Corsair [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:19 pm ] |
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I agree |
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| Author: | WanderingDunedain [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:40 pm ] |
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orc bows are the worst bow option avalable, 18" range and strengh 2 then after that is a normal bow which has 4" extra range then its the dwarf bow with an 18" range and strengh 3 then the best is an elf bow which has a 24" range and S3 but you do pay for the points with elf bows because theyre a point more |
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| Author: | theOneRider [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:43 pm ] |
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Well, sorry to stand out in the croud, but I hate orc bows because my best friend loves them: Every time we've played a game, I've fielded my motley crew of elves (with heavy armor & everything!) and he's borrowed my gobbos and orcs, 33% restriction carefully enforced. And His Orc Bows Have Massacred My Elves Every Single Time!!!!! :evil: The only way I ever beat him with this setup was when I forced my elves into close combat with him. And, just to block suggestions that he was cheating, they were my dice. Some of you may have "heard" me mentioning how un-fun a game is when your mighty elven captain is running across the field, screaming in terror... Well, now you know why. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:35 pm ] |
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I don't think there is any reasonable alternative to the Str 2 Orc Bow in the rules though. Making it Str 3 puts it on par with the quality bows in the game which is rubbish. Then you're in a situation where Elf bows need to be made Str 4 to compensate which is also rubbish as that would totally over power them. Orcs and Goblins are not keen archers. There is little mention of the success of Orc archery in the books and in the films you see Goblin arrows bouncing off and around the Fellowship in Moria, while a rain of Orc arrows barely impact the charge Rohan to save Minas Tirith. I will say that numbers matter and that's the only time that Orc bows probably come into play as a valid tactic. Goblins and Orcs are cheap enough that the Evil player can field large numbers of bows in medium to high point games. In these cases you may get lucky and score some 5's or 6's on your Wound rolls or perhaps take out horses (best option when the dice favor the hit) on the charge. But always remember that anything you do kill on the charge is just candy. You won't have a viable ranged army with these weapons. I have even found that equipping my Uruk Scouts with Orc Bows has worked out well on a few occassions. I absolutely do NOT hang back and just shoot as that is a huge waste of an Uruk. But by advancing at half-speed and taking shots I have generally been able to bring down one or two targets on the close, or shoot a horse out from under a few models. And every one of those hits are one less that I need to worry about when we do engage and gives mu Uruks an advantage. And if my opponent has no ranged fire then I have a major advantage since even a Str 2 bow is better than no bow for forcing an enemy to move to engage you. But I would never rely on ranged fire as a primary force for any army that is stuck with Str 2 bows. Fun, yes. Effective, sometimes. Useless, sometimes. |
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:36 pm ] |
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In my little experience with Moria Goblins, I think swarming comes first and archery comes last. To maximize the benefit of archery, I used the evil side advanatage of shooting inside the fight which I think pretty much coompensates for their less effeciency. In such case you'll need another big threat, and that's a role which trolls are perfect for. So in a nutshell, your orcs/gobbos has a swarming advantage so use it to outnumber and pin most of the good force (even shield when needed). Then, use the troll or high defense units to charge your main target (a hero/captain, or even a group of warriors). Finally your archers shoot into the fight where your high defense fighter(s) is(are) in. With many archers and some luck you may take out some, hoping that high defense of your unit will give it a better chance. And you're using swarming tactic, so there should be lots of them anyway... 
hope this helps. |
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| Author: | General Haar [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:28 am ] |
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Orc bows are indeed the worst bows available stat-wise, but just because they're not great doesn't mean I'm not going to take them. I found that having an army with no shooting puts you at a great disadvantage. I almost always max my 33% limit on bows for my Moria army, and it does incredibly well. Obviously, you have to advance while shooting, because you'll more likely than not do more damage in combat, and getting into a shoot-out with enemy archers will just end poorly for you because of the range factor. Orc bows are not going to be the strong point of your army, as it has been said, but you should almost always have them. The archers are generally cheap points-wise (15 Orc trackers for 75 points? Fantastic), so it's easy to get a rain of arrows going. I pretty much agree with Beowulf on this. I don't know how one would or should improve an Orc bow, but I don't think they actually need too much adjusting. |
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| Author: | hithero [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: orc bow... |
Ebob wrote: I played a game yesterday, and I used 18 goblin archers as proxies for orc trackers - just to test them out as an option.
But I wasn't impressed. They were only firing at Rohirrim - but did they hit anything? did the heck as like. way. All normal bows are S2 though and if you are using trackers then they are pretty much the same (just shorter range) as Minas Tirith, Easterling, Harad, Khand and in this particular scenario, your Rohan opponant. I'm not a fan of trackers myself as they are a severe liability if they face elves or you have(ie things are going badly) to throw them in combat due to their D3. I prefere massed normal orc/goblin archers and volley fire and once in normal range close and fight, as they will be outshot and fight as well as any other orc/goblin. |
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| Author: | SDJackson [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:43 am ] |
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Orc bows can do well in large numbers, with trackers the bows are good, they are the same points as a warrior without equipment and have 1 less defence. So they are the cheapest orcs. The trackers help the orcs outnumber and with 24 shots in a 700 point army, (My army) theoretically 2 Dwarf warriors with bows would die per turn. |
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| Author: | Corsair [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:53 am ] |
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i suppose they can in large numbers but with a strength of 2 and a ranger of 18", i still find them poor. I would rather ally with harad or something. |
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| Author: | hithero [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:53 pm ] |
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Corsair wrote: i suppose they can in large numbers but with a strength of 2 and a ranger of 18", i still find them poor. I would rather ally with harad or something. That doesn't really help though as only 1/3 of the Harad allies can be bow armed.
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| Author: | theOneRider [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:44 pm ] |
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Yeah, the old 1/2 rule was cut when GW added new troop options. Since there's more than just spear and bow options, they decided that 50% poisoned bowes was powergaming, I guess. And it is.
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| Author: | hithero [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:25 pm ] |
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theOneRider wrote: Yeah, the old 1/2 rule was cut when GW added new troop options. Since there's more than just spear and bow options, they decided that 50% poisoned bowes was powergaming, I guess. There has never been a 1/2 bow rule for Harad, its alway's been 1/3. In the Harad scenarios they could take 1/2 but not as a generic rule.
And it is. |
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| Author: | mr. dude [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:52 pm ] |
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I can't play properly without the safety of my Trackers. They force your opponent to be more careful, and they allow you more freedom by distracting your opponent's archers. |
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| Author: | theOneRider [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:41 pm ] |
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hithero wrote: There has never been a 1/2 bow rule for Harad, its alway's been 1/3. In the Harad scenarios they could take 1/2 but not as a generic rule. Ah... I thought that was mentioned in their errata as cannon. I misunderstood, then. Sorry.
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| Author: | The newbie [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Orc Trackers really annoyed me last week, 10 trackers vs my 8 dwarf warrior bowmen, both of us with a range of 18" but I believed myself to have the upperhand with strenght 3 bows. In the first turn of shooting I killed nothing and two dwarf were slain. Second turn 1 dwarf dies (so its 5 dwarfs vs 10 trackers now) however the law of average swings my way and 3 trackers die. I get priority and after another round of bad shooting nothing is killed from either of us. Next turn the trackers charged and with some late spear support my dwarfs were quickly finished of, leaving my right flank exposed 
My Khazad held firm and I beat of the pesky Moranon orcs in the end 
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