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| Denethor http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12626 |
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Wed May 28, 2008 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Denethor |
Do you think Denethor is worthwhile adding to your army to win a game?? |
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| Author: | Hazer Moore [ Wed May 28, 2008 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Denethor |
MuslimRohirrim wrote: Do you think Denethor is worthwhile adding to your army to win a game??
Well i played against him at LOTR Grand Tournament, and he passed his couage test every single turn and he was quite annoying to play against. So i decided to add him into my force, but in the 2 games I've played with him, he's failed his courage 3 times early in in each game. So now i don't believe he is worth it, i would much rather have Beregond for 25 points 
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| Author: | the director [ Wed May 28, 2008 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
depends if you like taking risks, i'd personally only use him for themed armies, with no might i'd leave him out. |
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| Author: | ReaKon [ Wed May 28, 2008 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Well not including any will (not sure without looking at my book how much he has) he has a 1 in 6 (16.667%) chance of failing with a courage of 5. Obviously this changes if you have a -1 modifier nearby in which case it is a 5 in 18 chance (just less than a third). If you like those odds, take him 
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Wed May 28, 2008 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Thanks guys! Hope you noticed the poll above. Please vote for it if you like. And awaiting more comments!
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| Author: | BilboOfTheWhiteTower [ Wed May 28, 2008 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Certainly there are risks taking him, but for 30 points and with a Fight and Defense of 5 and 2 attacks, I sure would.
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| Author: | whafrog [ Wed May 28, 2008 5:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Denethor |
MuslimRohirrim wrote: Do you think Denethor is worthwhile adding to your army to win a game??
I'd use him so long as there were no Sauron/RW/Balrog/Goblin drum/Sap Will casters in the opposition. He has plenty of Will to handle a couple bad Courage rolls. Use him to punch a hole in the enemy's lines and hope he dies early 
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Wed May 28, 2008 7:10 pm ] |
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First thought came into my mind when I saw Denethor that he'll be an evil hero among good people's lines like Grima (well not just like him). Anybody thinks that may be he should have been? |
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| Author: | ReaKon [ Wed May 28, 2008 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Not at all...he wasn't evil
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Thu May 29, 2008 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
IMHO Neither was Grima at some point, He "was once a man of Rohan". Though it's another story with Denethor, but after all he looked in the Palantir for long time like Saruman did. The only difference is that he was not promised a kingdom. The eye deluded him into finding the ring for his own sake, while actually he was just another instrument to find it for its original owner. He was exposed to a power beyond his strength so he fell while thinking he's doing the right thing. That's what "Broken Mind" is, I think...acting in the favor of evil while thinking this is the right thing to do for his own true people. In his mind he was not doing it out of treason to his people or for some prize like Grima or Saruman, but he was deluded that it's in the favor of his people. Just another kind of mischief the eye can do to control people. |
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| Author: | ReaKon [ Thu May 29, 2008 8:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
He isn't in the same boat as Grima though IMO as he did not act as an evil person after the influence. He still held off the fighting for a long time in osgiliath when he could have been influenced to let it be taken over along with Minas Tirith. He was just turned a little mad/crazy which I reckon is reflected quite well in his rules |
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Thu May 29, 2008 8:49 am ] |
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You are right of course that he was working for his own people, or at least thought so, even when he was searching for the ring he was thinking he is doing the same. He sent his own son to sabotage the fellowship's cause and bring the ring to him even if it was not the will of the councel. That was not his will then, that was the Eye's will. Only he didn't see it this way, he didn't feel his mind was already penetrated. What I say that the Evil Eye was actually working through his good intentions but to the doom of the good people. BTW, I think that his rules are reflecting his broken mind, only that they don't give the good side enough benefit against his evil side and more important I think it's the evil player is the one who would like more to put him on the field and try to control him, otherwise the good player would not even bother to put him in even with his strong stats, and I guess that's exaclty what the feed-back above was till now. I'd try some house rules for him sometime. |
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| Author: | The newbie [ Thu May 29, 2008 9:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Denethor |
whafrog wrote: I'd use him so long as there were no Sauron/RW/Balrog/Goblin drum/Sap Will casters in the opposition. Don't forget dragons they bring courage down by -1 to
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Thu May 29, 2008 9:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
yeah, that really adds to the list!
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| Author: | tirno.alyanorno [ Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:48 am ] |
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Don't forget though, that the chance of him failing two courage tests in a turn are quite low, so if your force is broken and he passes that courage test he still has a "Stand Fast!" even if he fails his broken mind. He should be ok with his broken mind though, just keep some Fountain Court Guard with shields around him and on the slight chance that he fails the test, they can charge in whilst shielding, if he does manage to win he is unlikely to kill anything. if i played Gondor, I'd take him. |
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I agree that this is may be the best way to make use of him. But IMHO too much points cost and such small benefit, let's see: - you'll have to hire 3 court guards to limit his move (trap him), that's 30(his)+3x10=60 points. - his great stats probably won't be used in a fight because he's surrounded, so you'll only benefit from the stand fast! (no might, no fate!!) - The court guards are most probably useless or at least limited used points as they'll be busy guarding him (may be even little bit away from army lines just in case) So I think too much points spent for "Stand Fast!", evil player would be happy I guess. I would take Faramir instead, and some guys suggested that even 3 high elves would be more useful. As it seems to me and from discussion on forums it's always the evil side that would be happier if he's on the field even if he doesn't gain conrol over him often. So continuing on this line I suggested some house rules on another forum I am puttting thm hereunder. They at least could be fun to try: ========================== An altered "Broken Mind" special rule: - His courage value is 4 not 5. - Evil player should deploy it only in the good player's deployment area (before good player deploys so good player would have the choice to surround him). - Courage test (as usual): Evil side rolls at the beginning of each turn to see if the evil side controls him for the turn. - Might points (let's make him a real hero): He should have like 2 might points. Evil player can never use the might points even if he cortrols him. Only good player can use the might points as usual and even to affect the cotrolling courage test roll. - Will Points: After deciding which side controls him then the controlling side can use the will points normally. - If evil side fails to subdue him, then he also works as a banner for the good people. - Also if the good people army been reduced to half it's force then no roll is needed and he's always on the evil side. - Wounding Restriction: the restrictions of attacks as in his current special rule, but adding that only Gandalf the white can score wounds on him if he's on the evil side that turn. =========== Odds: Evil side chances: - Failed courage test in any turn (more likely now with less courage). - break good people's force. Good side chances: - successful courage test, with 2 chances to alter the dice with might. - A chance to surround him as usual as he'll deploy after Denethor is deployed while using him for stand fast and banner OR git rid of him if needed with Gandald the white (if he's around) ============= Why choose him over Grima then? because he can be added without Saruman with much less points cost. may be his points worth should be raised to like 75 and counts against evil side army points, so that if you pick up Saruman then it would be better to pick Grima, if not then Denethor would be more suitable for same effect with a twist. Let me know what you think and of course you can add up to it if you like. |
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| Author: | Mouth-of-Sauron [ Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
You all make me laugh As much as I´ve played with him he has never evenr lost a single courage test.... I´ve not really faces any nazgyl or that sort of things... But how´s that? The answear is simple: The will of Iron  *
This is one of my combos and even if he fails with the coutage of 5 + 2 (2D6 rolled 1s) and then +3 (migh) he get´s 10 And that turen I restore his will...
I play him as much as I do with Beregiond and usually I have them Both on field... Gandalf, Bergond & Denethor -My army leaders
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| Author: | MuslimRohirrim [ Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Sorry, but I think I am may be missing something. What +3 might and the will of iron? Would you please explain more. Thanks! |
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| Author: | ReaKon [ Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I think he means that he restores his will with Gandalf and then that helps with passing courage tests. The only problem with this is that while gandalf is restoring (only) one will point, he isn't using magic on anything else. As an apposing player, I would like you to use this combo. |
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| Author: | the director [ Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
every turn gandalf spends keeping denthor in check is a turn my men of the east don't get blasted left right and center. to be honest thats fine with me |
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