Rohan and proper spears

valpas · **Posted:** Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:03 pm

Théoden was 60 pts in the TT release and RRG 9 (15 mounted) when they were first published in White Dwarf.

I was looking for something completely different today when I noticed a file on my hard drive named "rohan_infantry.txt". I looked into it and found tactics tips on the use of WoR with throwing spears. I had written it in 2004 (after RotK, or 3rd release of the game rules) for the Rohan players in the old TLA campaign. Our faction was having trouble against Isengard at the time.

Here is the text, unedited, showing what I, a Rohan player, thought of the throwing spears seven years ago. Take a peek into history:

Quote:

It's been a bit quiet lately, so I figured you might have time to comment on my thoughts about Rohan infantry.

What separates our infantry from the others? Spears. "They" have spears that can be used to support other infantry models and we have throwing spears, which at first look seem the greatest invention since fire or sliced bread. A second, critical look makes the Warriors of Rohan seem the worst infantry (not counting Dunlendings) and I used to think so for a long time. How about a third look?

In infantry against infantry battle it does not make much difference whether you charge or are charged. Everybody still gets their one attack. Actually often it is good if the enemy charges you so that you can then move your free models to advantageous positions and control the battle. A good tactic in this situation is to gang up on single enemies, preferably trying to trap them but at least attacking them with several models. The warriors who have to battle alone can shield to buy time for the others to finish their opponents and eventually come to help.

How do the throwing spears fit this picture then? They are a good way to force the enemy infantry to make a charge when they have priority even when they usually would like to charge when they don't have the priority. Let's examine a sequence, which can be used:

0. You keep out of enemy charge range (usually 6") until you lose priority. The same as with cavalry.

1. When you lose priority, you bring your throwing spears within 6" of the enemy. In the shooting phase you get a few free S3 hits on them, which is good.

2. Next turn if the enemy wins priority he has two options: charge and know you can arrange the battle after his charge to your advantage or not charge. If he does not charge but stays on place or moves backwards you can repeat phase 1 and come to phase 2 again.

3. The enemy chose to charge you. Some of your warriors are tied in battle. Now you move your free warriors (hopefully those with throwing spears) around your flanks to attack enemy models on the flanks, ganging up on a few selected enemies. If you can find free enemies you can throw spears at, even better. Try to pick up targets with D5 maximum to have decent chance of wounding them.

4. The center shields and the "gang-uppers" roll a lot of dice to win and wound.

This sequence works best if you put your sword&shield models in front row to bear the enemy attack. Keep the throwing spears behind them in base contact; since RotK you can throw spears through a single friendly model if in base contact.

This should work against Orcs and Goblins. They are slightly cheaper than WOR but because they actually benefit from two ranks deep formation they tend to keep in that formation. Two ranks deep orc/goblin line is shorter than our one rank deep line. Against Uruk pike block our infantry is in trouble but our cavalry will be there to provide heavy hitting power.

Two things I haven't discussed here are skirmish tactics, defending against wargs/raiders and combined cavalry and infantry tactics. You can find combined tactics from talldwarf's tactics articles.

Your thoughts and experiences?

-- Pasi

Angularity · **Joined:** Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:56 am **Posts:** 157

That note on tactics is interesting. It points us to the idea that, for Rohan, mobility is the key, whether mounted or on foot. That kind of ties in with a horse culture, as they're less likely to go toe-to-toe with the tough guys when they're used to getting out of Dodge at 20mph on horseback.

I would have thought the obvious tactic against a pike block is to use the horse bows and whittle down their numbers until they get demoralised, but then I haven't tried it. When I wargamed the English Civil War there was a version of 'StonePaperScissors' that explained how the armies worked. That is, missiles beat pikes, pikes beat horses, horses beat missile troops. Get the combination wrong and you're going to lose.

Zogash · **Posted:** Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:35 pm

Angularity wrote:

That note on tactics is interesting. It points us to the idea that, for Rohan, mobility is the key, whether mounted or on foot. That kind of ties in with a horse culture, as they're less likely to go toe-to-toe with the tough guys when they're used to getting out of Dodge at 20mph on horseback.

I would have thought the obvious tactic against a pike block is to use the horse bows and whittle down their numbers until they get demoralised, but then I haven't tried it. When I wargamed the English Civil War there was a version of 'StonePaperScissors' that explained how the armies worked. That is, missiles beat pikes, pikes beat horses, horses beat missile troops. Get the combination wrong and you're going to lose.

Unfortunately, the way stats work in LotR, whittling down D5/6 pike formations with S2 Bows (limited to 33% of your models...) can take a loooong time, and if the pike formation is in any way supported by cavalry or crossbows, you won't have that much time. Either you get caught since you can only move 5" and still shoot, or your riders get their horses shot from under them. One way to do it is to have 10+ foot archers fire salvo after salvo into the pikemen while your cav/infantry keep them occupied. The tactics valpas posted work to some extent, however, even with the ability to countercharge and shieldblock, the higher fight value and defense of the Uruks, as well as pike support, gives them an edge in most combats.

hithero · **Posted:** Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:48 pm

Crossbows are easy to deal with as they can't move and shoot, just keep moving and use blocking terrain forgoing shooting for a turn if need be, you have to skirmish with them - a lot. I've mentioned before, patience is the key, stay out of reach and knock a few models off here and there and your opponant will get pee'd of and make a mistake - then nail him with a charge.

emperor_thompson · **Joined:** Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:41 am **Posts:** 181

Rohirrum warriors aren't so bad against Uruk-hai. If you can get around the enemy shield wall (which is almost a certainty considering you will probably outnumber your opponent, and the fact their lines will be at least two men deep), the pikemen can be killed very easily with throwing spears. From my personal experience, Rohan's biggest problems come when they are against Easterling or Gondorian armies. Admittedly, you could fill your ranks with Royal Guard, but that isn't a particularly satisfying way to win; they are supposed to be elites, after all. Without spears 6D opponents can be very difficult to beat, but what really puts the nail in the coffin is the 5D of the enemy archers, rendering your own archers next to useless (which is particularly depressing when you have put them on horses). Throwing spears aren't great against D6 either. There are things you can do: Gandalf's blinding light can put the balance of power back in your archer's hands, or you could use the Helmingas. But let's face it, Rohan shouldn't have to rely on specialised units such as these to win. Rohan don't need spears, but they do need something (lances would probably be enough).

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:30 pm

Angularity wrote:

It points us to the idea that, for Rohan, mobility is the key, whether mounted or on foot.

Mobility is definitely the key for Rohan infantry to win in SBG as it is not exactly the best armoured army nor does it have to option to turtle along in a phalanx or shieldwall. Throwing spears are a major advantage, if you know how to use them as every casualty counts. The key is being prepared whether or not you have priority.

March your Warriors of Rohan with shields in two ranks, the first with handweapons, the second with throwing spears. If the enemy is well-armoured, forget the archers and get more shielded WORs. Otherwise, have them in two small divisions on either flank to pepper the advancing enemy with arrows. As soon as the enemy is just outside charge range, reform your ranks so you have a single long line of WORs. Next turn, swarm around his shieldwall/phalanx. Remember to maximize number of throwing weapon attacks and that those poor WOR facing two or more opponents should shield themselves until backup arrives. Soon the shieldwall/phalanx has been pulled apart and ripped to ribbons, leaving you free to 'mop up' whatever remains.

A note of warning: this tactic can be particularly bloody and you're likely to lose more than a few men using it. A good way to improve your chances is to field Erkenbrand on foot with your large WOR army and when your troops tackle the enemy shieldwall/phalanx, sound the Horn of Helm Hammerhand. When you're rolling two D6 in every combat, the ability to re-roll one can be a real lifesaver and quickens the decimation of the enemy army.

RangerofTheNorth · **Joined:** Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:54 pm **Posts:** 483

This is a great topic and one that ive brought up to my gaming group. Here's the thing Id personally much rather take a hint from WOTR boost their fight value by one and give them the lance option and maybe, MAYBE an extra wound. Their Cavalry are whats important to me I never take them on foot, fighting from behind a castle wall they do fine and having throwing lances on foot and horse is great. But throwing spears should not be their only option.

TheFlameoftheWest · **Posted:** Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:42 am

Yes, I know this is borderline Necromancy. :shock:

I've been working on some profiles in my self-titled One Campaign to Rule them All. What do y'all think of this? It may not be entirely "realistic" but I think it fits in nicely with existing SBG rules and gives Rohan a nice boost without completely overhauling how their army performs.

Rohan War Spears: these spears may be used as either a lance or throwing spear while mounted, but only as one or the other on any turn. A Rohan model dismounted while equipped with a Rohan Warspear may keep it, but may use the spear only as a throwing weapon.

whafrog · **Posted:** Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:10 pm

Borderline necromancy? That's like saying you had a borderline accident, when your bumper is inside the other car's trunk

Any spear able to handle the impact of being a lance would not be throwable.

I'd prefer to just give mounted riders a lance option. Model-wise, any model that is holding the spear in a vertical or under arm position can be counted as a lance.

TheFlameoftheWest · **Posted:** Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:14 pm

Quote:

Any spear able to handle the impact of being a lance would not be throwable.

Yes, I agree in "real life" but I meant this more in game terms. It's not "realistic" to even be able to continuously pick up a thrown weapon every turn, but we get past that alright.
I think my idea boosts Rohan with what they desperately need (lances) while keeping gear that makes them unique (throwing spears). Harad can use their lances as spears while on the ground, which doesn't sound practical to me either.

Hodush · **Posted:** Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:00 am

LOL maybe one more year and it would have been thread necromancy.

To be honest, the easiest thing is to allow them to be both throwing spears and support spears. This is how things were in "real life", though they did come up with different designs for better throwing spears or better pikes, they were useable in both manners provided you had the right formation and tactics.
A simple example is in the movie 300 where Leonidas throws his spear which he had used for days to kill in melee as a throwing weapon. Now this is a movie of course, but the principal stands. Homers Iliad also mentions this.

It is a bit too far fetched to have both of the benefits of throwing weapon and lance, so I think it would be better to have a spear/throwing spear as the house rule. To be quite honest, Rohan isn't given much of a bonus for being a horse culture and only relatively recently got something in the form or 100% RoR with bows.

typhoon2 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:05 am

In our own history the Cataphracts carried lance, javelins, bow and shield, as well as a hand weapon! All this on an armoured horse.

Personally I find it difficult to reconcile the carrying of a battle's-worth of throwing weapons and a large and unwieldy lance at the same time. The War Spear rule works fine as a house rule for spear-armed models, although simply allowing mounted Rohirrim a Lance option for 1/5 points makes equal sense.

Oldman Willow · **Posted:** Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:18 pm

typhoon2 wrote:

In our own history the Cataphracts carried lance, javelins, bow and shield, as well as a hand weapon! All this on an armoured horse.

Personally The War Spear rule works fine as a house rule for spear-armed models, although simply allowing mounted Rohirrim a Lance option for 1/5 points makes equal sense.

Apples and oranges.
The precise meanings of words is important.The Cataphracts were armed with Kontos (12 feet long) or some times a 9 foot long maul.They were often combined formations with lightly armed and armored missile troops in the center. Only the most elite troops were trained and equipped with all. They were equipped with bucklers rather than shields. They also attacked at the walk because they did not have stirrups for the saddles for most of their deployment history.

Fluff not competition rules
I am glad you brought up Cataphracts. There seems to be very few options for heavy Cavalry in the game. I would like to see some. I would also like to see an option and mechanism for Parthain shot so we could use some of the mounted figures like light Cavalry. Ride into range and shoot then ride back out of charge range in the same turn. Ride up throw javelins then ride back. Can't have every thing. :roll:

Fluff not competition rules
The Rohirrim infantry are light infantry. I would ant give them the option of a spear unless they were dismounted Hvy cav. But wait there is no option for Hvy Cav :shock:

There is no good solution but house rules and real army list.
My two cents.Give them lances but not spears.
Some non GW army listto review-http://larsen-family.us/~1066/melists.html

Quote:

Personally I find it difficult to reconcile the carrying of a battle's-worth of throwing weapons and a large and unwieldy lance at the same time.

Me too

but WYSIWYG rule having to replace every javelin model with another model when the javelin is expended also a bit much. :roll:

The same with the lance they were usually good for one charge.

The real subject here is how to make the Rohirrim more competitive. I wish I could offer a suggestion. I have always been more interested in Middle Earth than the GW Hobby. The Rohirrim Cav should have the option of lances. I think it would be much harder to justify equipping them with bows.I am afraid that is getting too far off topic. I would like to know if the link was interesting or is the list to far removed from how Middle Earth has evolved.

Oldman Willow · **Posted:** Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:39 pm

TheFlameoftheWest wrote:

Quote:

Any spear able to handle the impact of being a lance would not be throwable.

Yes, I agree in "real life" but I meant this more in game terms. It's not "realistic" to even be able to continuously pick up a thrown weapon every turn, but we get past that alright.
I think my idea boosts Rohan with what they desperately need (lances) while keeping gear that makes them unique (throwing spears). Harad can use their lances as spears while on the ground, which doesn't sound practical to me either.

It is as silly to refer to every stick with a pointy end as a spear as it is to refer to every firearm with a box magazine an assault rifle.

A javelin, throwing spear, thrusting spear, spear, pike,kontos and a lance and are not the same thing.
There should be a difference in the rules but there is not.

Fluff rather than a solution :idea:

Rohan has throwing spears and Hardar should have thrusting spears not lances. I think Rohan should have an option to replace throwing spears with thrusting spears. The Kings guard and Serpent guard should be able to replace thrusting spears with lances.

TheFlameoftheWest · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:16 pm

Very good points everyone.

Here's my new suggestion. My goal is to keep what makes Rohan unique in terms of tactics, make them a bit more deadly on the charge, and still deny them the use of spears on foot.

Rohan War Spears: these function normally as throwing spears. However, if an 'Expert Rider' model uses it in a ranged attack before charging an enemy, add +1 bonus to wound.

LordElrond · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:41 pm

Another Houserule?: Mounted models with the Expert Rider Special Rule do not suffer the -1 to shoot when moving Penalty?

TheFlameoftheWest · **Posted:** Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:27 pm

Quote:

Another Houserule?: Mounted models with the Expert Rider Special Rule do not suffer the -1 to shoot when moving Penalty?

I'm not trying to make multiple House Rules, but to finalize what we think would be the best way to resolve the current problem with Rohan's lack of spears/ lances.

TheFlameoftheWest · **Posted:** Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:57 am

I think I misunderstood your post LordElrond, I thought you were expressing disbelief that I introduced a new House rule, not introducing one of your own.
I do like the idea of Expert Riders ignoring the new Hobbit SBG rules about movement and archery.
It's just tough because Rohan was essentially the first army to be fully fleshed out before so many new Special rules came out. Without a fairly radical change to their profiles- Fight 4 horses/ Lances/ Throwing Spears with no movement penalties/ etc- they cannot be considered even close to most other factions.
I'm open to ideas because this is a rather important aspect of the game IMO.

typhoon2 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:27 am

Re-reading Tolkien's account of the Rohirrim on the fields of the Pelennor, another House Rule might be that Rohan automatically win drawn Duel rolls (or perhaps utilise the new Elven Blade rule in this regard) when mounted.

Damian · **Joined:** Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:59 pm **Posts:** 246

TheFlameoftheWest wrote:

Here's my new suggestion. My goal is to keep what makes Rohan unique in terms of tactics, make them a bit more deadly on the charge, and still deny them the use of spears on foot.

Rohan War Spears: these function normally as throwing spears. However, if an 'Expert Rider' model uses it in a ranged attack before charging an enemy, add +1 bonus to wound.

I like this idea as it gives a minor buff to charging without detracting from Rohan's signature playstyle. I think just making it a blanket rule for all Rohan War Spears would be easier to implement. That way you don't have any confusion between a Warrior of Rohan (who doesn't have Expert Rider) and an unhorsed Rider (who does have Expert Rider). It shouldn't be a 'cavalry only' rule. It's not all about the horses all the time, Erkenbrand relieved Helm's Deep with 1000 swordsmen on foot!

I don't actually think Rohan is particularly uncompetitive. However, the kiting style of play required to win with Rohan takes time to play out and is not suited to a tournament environment with time-limited games. I think the ability to cause a few more casualties on the charge is all Rohan really needs.

Rohan and proper spears

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