Hi there!

I recently saw the new "army discussions" and I would like to discuss the new value for the old and new dwarves (Durin's folk and Erebor).

In my opinion, dwarves have suffered a great penalty against monsters because of the "wound vs strength" attack. In my opinion, Floi is a key piece in the competitive game because it's the only "support" against special abilities and to handle "magical" situations (if you go for pure dwarf army of course).
Durin's folk still need use of Standard bearers because of the lack of spears. I feel that Iron Guards and Vault Wardens are more important too (elite army), because of that. Anyway, shooting and moving nerf still affects the great dwarven bowmen (and of course, the dwarven rangers).

On the other hand, Erebor army it's great because they can equip spears but they have the lack of unit options (enter Grimhammers discussion here ). They have great heroes too, such as Thorin or Dwalin. Balin is a great "cheap" captain if you go for numbers. Anyway, I think they still need more troops (Men of Dale are a bit weird in that list, that's because I don't talk about them).

What do you think? Can they be seen in the board more frequently than before? And if so, that could be probably because of the Hobbit film hype?

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"All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost."

Hi Tharkan,

Personally I don't like to mix the LOTR and the Hobbit lists together as the earlier list for LOTR was developed with certain strengths and weaknesses in mind, which are pretty much negated by adding spears and heroes from Erebor. I also like the design distinction between the two.

As we have only seen a third of the Hobbit movies I suspect there will be a lot that will come out that will develop the Erebor Dwarf range, particularly troop variety. Hopefully Dain's army will give us two or three more types of distinct warriors.

A topic I can really enjoy here. I have very little experience with the Hobbit Dwarves other than Thorin's company. I do own Floi but I've yet to ever field him.

Personally I don't feel Dwarves really suffer against monsters, brutal power attacks Do shift the balance a little more towards the monsters but I tend to send vault wardens in kill teams against them and seldom have any trouble dispatching them.
I'm not a big Iron Guard fan, mostly cuz throwing weapons have been nerfed so much, and their d6 limit makes them too easy to kill I think. But ultimately they are a very solid faction, with great heroes and strong troops. I'm still undefeated with them so I think they do just fine lol. Something like 40-0 so I see no need to suddenly make major changes lol

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As a future dwarf player, I would love to hear opinions on Grimhammers as I have 'tested' their throwing weapons and feel they will be useful in my upcoming games. Treat it like an extra attack as you charge.

Can't wait for upcoming models either.

VG

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"Dark have been my dreams of late."

I think Grimhammers get a bad rep, they're certainly not the best value dwarf elites but they're fairly costed and far better than most people make out.

Sure they suffer when you compare them to Khazads, losing 1 strength, 1 Defence and Bodyguard (worth 2 points + the special rule on a warrior) but they gain throwing weapons and their weapon special rule (worth 2 points + the special rule) so it's perfectly fair that they should cost the same.

Now, it's hard to argue that the Khazads' strength, defence and bodyguard boosts aren't more useful than the Grimhammers' throwing weapons and weapon rule - strength will make them kill more, defence will make them survive longer and bodyguard will stop them running BUT that doesn't mean that Grimhammers are poor, just that they suffer when compared to Khazads.

I think a lot of people dislike Throwing Weapons and so resent 'having' to pay the 2 points as part of their base profile. I think Grimhammers would be looked on far more favourably if they were 9 points with a 2 point throwing weapon upgrade available. However, IMO as a long running Rohan player, Throwing Weapons are a great tactical addition to your force and almost always make their points back (a full warband of 12 Grimhammers with TW will only need to kill 2/3 warriors in most armies to make their points back).

Bear in mind that you also don't have the choice between the two, if you're using army of Thror you have to use Grimhammers/warriors of Erebor and I think you'll find they become a lot more efficient when back up by a WOE with a spear. I certainly don't think they'll let you down on the battlefield if you have an army of them but sure, if you're wanting to paint up one warband of dwarves to ally in to another good army then you'll probably be more effective with Dain leading 12 Khazads than Thror leading 12 Grimhammers.

Finally, the models are incredible, that'll always swing it for me!

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I agree!! Grimhammers are great miniatures and I think their point cost fits really good with their stats. Throwing weapons cost is high, and I always thought it should be related to the thrower skill and taking into account the new move penalty.
Anyway, GH are great 2 handed weapon wielders when supported by spears and their special weapon attack make them a reallly versatile option. I only miss their defense 7 as they really have a good armour (and complete if we compare with the warriors ).

Anyway, I don't like to mix forces too (because is not logic seeing Thorin fighting with Durin for example. I also try not to use characters that are not really captains like Gimli [only if they not command any unit]). That's why I'm really excited with the idea of Dain and his dwarven hills warriors (mounted in pigs or not ).

What do you think about old rangers and dwarven bowmen now? Do you think they worth it in the new metagame?

Dwarven rangers are better against units that have Defence 2, 4, 6, 8 (They hit better but wound worse) while dwarven bowmen have the same skill to wound with defence 3, better in Defence 5 & 7.
But there is a real difference when close combat arrives. They have Defence 6 and rangers one less point. Both have axes but as mentioned in other threads, you have to think the defence value of your opponent and his strength versus your own defence to know if using axe special attack is a good idea.
On the other hand, Dwarven rangers as "massive" warriors are great because they point cost (this is arguable because Defence 6 gives you more survivability).

Finally I want to throw another couple of questions: To Banner or not to Banner? How about dwarven forces against Light forces (in the new rules they can fight against to)?

Thanks for your responses and ideas

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"All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost."

Just a side note that Grim Hammers will kill a goblin on a 4+, so if they are charging Goblin Town goblin's they are going to have killed 1 in 6 of them before they get there! With the new rules they can be backed up by Erebor Spearmen, but just like the LOTR dwarf armie's they need to be backed up with banners. Unfortunately G.W. has not yet released any, or for that matter horn blowers which are also available on the army list, so our only option for the moment is conversion. (And no not a St. Paul on the road to Damascus type moment, but a minor modelling project, arf, arf!).

Apologies for mid afternoon out break of humour, and I can't believe that I almost ended a post with arf, arf!

I am in the minority on this post. I hate Grim Hammers, because I'm extremely disappointed by their stat line. They cost as much as a Khazad Guard (as stated above) but have -1 str, defense and a far weaker special, honestly I think their weapon special isn't worth a point, and their throwing weapon only hits on a 5+ when moving (the same reason I don't love Iron Guard anymore). They are the only dwarf elite without strength 4.
For me it comes down to they aren't the best at anything, if you want throwing axes take Iron Guard, better strength and an extra attack. If you only have 11 points take a Khazad and get a better unit. Personally I'd never take a Grim Hammer over even a normal dwarf

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I honestly think that if they had the a special rule meaning that they never suffered the usual -1 penalty to the Duel roll for fighting with a Two-handed weapon, they would then be points viable and be able to look the Khazad Gaurd in the eye!

Do you think we'll see some sort of change from GW as the consensus seems to be unanimous that GHs are terrible?

I want to use my (unconverted) models

VG

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"Dark have been my dreams of late."

Hi VG,

I was thinking the same thing. I suspect that if we write in, (don't bother with e-mails!) and bring it up at the singles and doubles tournament that we can effect change that way. I personally love the miniatures, but they are not worth 11 points in the game, even now being supportable under the rules. The throwing weapons are now more clumsy and its rare that you are going to be close enough, and it being tactically sound to stand and shoot, though goblin town goblins will most likely make up a large proportion of their enemies at the battle of the five armies, which they are well set to take on. However they do not stand terribly well against Mordor and IsenGaurd.

Have to respectfully disagree I'm afraid, the 2 posts after mine were in favour of Grimhammers so it's certainly not unanimous. That said, I understand I'm in the minority as most players seem to dislike them (JamesR makes some good points as to why), however, even with that in mind, I still think they're far from terrible, they're just not competitive when directly compared to Khazads. I think most people would agree that a Khazad Guard will be more effective on the battlefield than a High Elf with shield and spear (who costs the same) but that doesn't suddenly make the High Elf terrible.

As I suggested, JamesR clearly doesn't rate the effectiveness of the GH Throwing Weapons so, for him and many others, they're never going to be worth it as you're wasting 2 points per model. If however you do rate Throwing Weapons, then GH will look far more attractive to you.

It's also not completely fair to judge them directly against each other as other troops and tactics have a big effect on how troops perform. GH can be supported with spears, essentially giving them 2 attacks, Khazads don't have that option, thus GH are improved by in-game synergy in a way that Khazads can't be.

It's also worth reiterating that they're not in the same list. I could understand this if both options were available in the same army and would almost certainly lean towards Khazads myself. As it is though, they are in different army lists so comparing the two is no different to comparing them to the high elf in my example above.

I also really don't think they'll get a change, despite a lot of players not liking them, they are perfectly fairly costed and balanced, they're far less broken than many troops in the game and so I doubt we'll see a change in their rules.

If you're using an Army of Thror then try out Thorin and Dwalin each leading 6 GH and 6 WOE with spears and damn the critics! I think they may surprise you!

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This is my plan.

I've tested the Grimhammers' throwing axes and you maybe get 1 kill every now and then. Really not worth the increase on points, but I will save my judgement for after a proper game.

VG

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"Dark have been my dreams of late."

Dr grant said right, they need spears cause whats lacks on them since their stats on strength is not the best is more attacks, spears can provide that extra punch.
A friend of mine played along with his models picking on thror aqnd 12 grimhammers vs a random choice of mine of 7 uruk berserkers and captain with h.armour and shield and that small testing ended up with all uruks dead and thror alive with 2 wounds.

What conclusions we took from it:
- grimhammers suffer heavily vs high defence with good retaliation strikes back to them, defence 6 can be bugging just by themselves needing 6s to wound, although they got weapon special attacks they really need support to be really that effective or suffer to get exposed to become weaker.
- they are great with special attacks supporting a heroe however, even better than khazad guard, but by just themselves khazad or other elite with defence 6+ beats them for more.
- the throwing axes are a funny thing, not a big thing to relie upon but on that fight they manage to kill 1 berserker with a throwing axe which I think was good enough. (would kill far more if they had foes with lower defence)
next time we will try with 6/6 bettewn them and spears to see what happen.

Sorry If I not explained myself properly about the Grimhammers. I think they fit well in army of Erebor with spears and a Banner (I use them and they are good). But it's true that 2 point cost for 5+ throwing axes, -1 defence, -1 strength and as bonus a double two handed weapon special attack cannot face in eficiency against Khazad Guards.

Not sure if Khazad Guards are over the average warriors but they are better in a competitive way in this metagame. Anyway, as I see in reviews, dwarves are not popular in competitions (almost in the official ones).

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"All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost."

dwarves are good but not flexible moving around the field, for dwarves to be competitive they need allies that deal with other natures of the game like magic or monsters, since now monsters rent means dwarven armour is not particular of any good when the monster press weight and squish them with sheer brute strength.
Khazad guards for game are more than just for fight, they are good for.
- good fight
- really high defence
- good courage
- and the bodyguard that they get immune to 1 of the most aspect of the game, courage checks

Its very hard to master a good only dwarven force without a mix bettewn thror army and durin´s folk, but surely you can get a potent combination.
if you can get on both get king´s champ for durins folk and thror´s army characters as you wish, the champ on the durin´s folk is a beast by himself and will make you really happy how he fares the war by his own if you know where to lead where the fight is thickest.

I disagree on Dwarves (Durin's Folk specifically) not being competitive on their own, it's v really just about understanding how to use them, like any other faction.
I do agree on the King's Champion being a beast! I love to pair him with Dwalin personally lol talk about a meat grinder when those two hit you!

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The value of throwing weapons depends entirely on what you throw them at. Spend 20 points on throwing weapons and kill a couple of Morannons and it looks like a bad deal, kill a couple of Morgul Knights and it looks quite a bit better.

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throwing axes are cheap per dwarf model, so any throwing axe of 5pts is worth of any kill as long you get his cost back, even killing a goblin evens the cost you payed for it lol
If you kill a morgul knight you get it worth 4x as much and a lucky throw and kill a named ringwraith may worth 25x as much lol

I really hope GW comes around to the nerfing of throwing weapons and gives an errata such as they do not suffer the -1 when used during a charge, or do not suffer the -1 at all. They were not over powered or over used under the original rules and probably did not need adjustment under the Hobbit. For most of the forces that had access to them they really helped balance the unit (Warg Riders, Rohan, Wood Elves).

I think the simple change of an FAQ statement eliminating the move/shoot penalty on TWs would be a simple and effective move for GW.

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