Fallen Realm Wargear and Bow Limit question

warg rider · **Joined:** Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:05 am **Posts:** 34

Hello all.

i really hope someone can clear the mist with this one for me. I'm finding the whole bow limit quiet confusing. in the sorcebook for fallen realms it states -

“Your army can
have 1/3 (rounding fractions up) of its Warriors equipped
with bows, Orc bows, long bows, Elf bows, Dwarf bows or
crossbows – usually, this means that one Warrior in every
three can carry a bow.”

now i dont know if im looking purely into the WORDS too much but am i correct in thinking this does not apply to spears?

could i in theory have an entire band of Orcs with throwing spears or does this unfortunately fall under bows?

Erunion · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:54 am

Throwing spears are not bows. Chuck away, my friend.

warg rider · **Joined:** Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:05 am **Posts:** 34

Erunion wrote:

Throwing spears are not bows. Chuck away, my friend.

This is fantastic!! i was so confused as in the rulebook they fall under missiles you see

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:15 am

Throwing weapons mostly suck though bro. I wouldnt put too much emphasis on it. Think about how often you can use them....within 6". Next turn youre probably charged or something bad can happen. Plus if you move, you subtract 1 to your 'to hit' roll.

Erunion · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:35 am

No, it is certainly not the kind of tactic to center your army around, but every little bit helps.

warg rider · **Joined:** Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:05 am **Posts:** 34

aahh tricksy... but am i correct in thinking spears can support? not as drastic as pikes but can support one man in fight?

SouthernDunedain · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:45 am

Throwing spears cannot be used to support.

MoriaMadness · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:29 am

Only your warg riders have throwing spears and they do count towards your 1/3 missile/bow armed troops if you choose to arm them with throwing spears (i would just use them as basic cavalry for the charge bonus). All of your orcs on foot are standard spears which can support a combat - unless they were a warg rider who lost his mount. I believe they keep their throwing spears in the new rules, or i cant remember it saying otherwise.

In a force like yours adam i wouldnt suggest any form of missile troop other than your uruk crossbows, they are deadly enough and the other options hardly compare for strength and distance

warg rider · **Joined:** Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:05 am **Posts:** 34

ahhh thats a bit disappointing but thanks for the update

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:50 pm

Giving your warg riders bows would count on your limit, but equipping them with throwing spears does not.

I agree fully that throwing weapons are NOT something to base an army around, the relatively poor shoot value of warg riders and the new -1 penalty for move/shoot it could well be point sink. I would not however say they are useless. I would say it depends on your opponent's army more than anything else.

It's already going to be hard to hit. So if it's also extra hard to score the wound then you're probably better off getting more troops than putting points to Warg Rider throwing spears. If you're facing off against any troop types that have a reasonable chance of getting wound IF you hit then they could be valuable. If you happen to score a wound on the charge and can charge on to another enemy, or if you take out a horse with the spears before your charge goes through, any of that will help.

If your local players agree to not count the -1 move penalty for THROWING WEAPONS only you will probably find it's a good balance, restores some usefulness to throwing weapons (which were never over powered to begin with) and makes them a little more usable for the points.

warg rider · **Joined:** Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:05 am **Posts:** 34

ok im very confused now... are throwing spears against or not against the missile count?

Creaky · **Joined:** Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:26 pm **Posts:** 424

They aren't.

Some armies would have real trouble if they did. The bow limit applies only to the equipment listed in your quote from the first post. Not sure why someone would think they did, or Rohan is in trouble.

whafrog · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:52 pm

There is no "missile" count, only a "bow" count. If it's not a bow, it doesn't count.

On wargs, throwing spears probably aren't worth it, but they are range 8", not the 6" for throwing daggers. The extra range makes them very viable for forces like Rohan...

Stormcrow · **Joined:** Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:02 am **Posts:** 218

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

Throwing weapons mostly suck though bro. I wouldnt put too much emphasis on it. Think about how often you can use them....within 6". Next turn youre probably charged or something bad can happen. Plus if you move, you subtract 1 to your 'to hit' roll.

Sorry but I strongly disagree with the above. I play wood elves, stick in thranduil and upgrade my warriors to Mirkwood guards and hit on a 2 plus/3 plus if you play the move penalty. They are mega effective despite their short range. Use them on the charge and it gives you a chance to kill before contact is made or just hold off until the shoot phase. I pretty much base my army around thrown weapons, effectiveness is not just about how they appear on paper but on having the right tactics!

Dr Grant · **Joined:** Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:50 pm **Posts:** 1339

Completely agree with Stormcrow, I posted this in another thread today but I'm pasting it here as it seems relevant:

Think of it this way, if you have 10 models with Throwing Weapons you've paid 20 points for the TW. That means that if you kill 3 Hunter orcs (purely as an example), then they've more than made their points back. Lets assume that you have priority and your 10 models all charge and throw their weapons. If you have a 4+ base shoot value 3/4 should hit and 1 should safely kill per turn. Obviously they won't all charge every turn but you can see how easy it is for TWs to make their points back. This also doesn't take into account the extra special hits that wound heroes, monsters and other tough targets (I've seen a throwing weapon kill a Ringwraith more than once). They've certainly taken a small hit with the -1 to hit when moving but they're still more than viable, in every game I use them they comfortably make their points back and often vastly exceed them. Obviously you're chances go down if you're a 5+ shoot model and up if you're a 3/2+ shoot model. Personally I wouldn't bother with orcs as hitting on 6's when you charge is so much less likely. However, I think TW are a very viable choice for any model with a base shoot of 4+ or better.

JamesR · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:36 pm

Just to jump in on the throwing weapon discussion, I'm not a fan for anyone who shoots worse than a 3+ base because of the movement penalty. All percentages are rounded
Against a D 4 or 5 enemy (which is the norm) a unit with a 4+ base only hits and wounds roughly 11% of the time (when moving). That does increase to 17% while standing in place so it's a bit more useful.

(Standard Elves are 17% and 22%)

I'm not a big fan of equipping units with throwing weapons and units that have them in their base cost (Grim Hammers, Iron Guard etc) lose some of their value to me because of the low odds of hitting and wounding (Hasharin and Erestor are definitely the exceptions lol) however That being said if the dice roll well enough they can be devastating and I've seen it happen, but typically I'd take the extra units because they're more of a sure-fire than TW's

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:19 pm

Dr grant I understand your army is good and maybe even the best throwing weapon based unit but realistically not many are. Look at rohan if they move they hit on 5+ and if they face uruks they need a 5 then 6.....odds are horrible. And you have to get close then you get eaten to pieces.

I'm sure you've had good experiences but the vast majority of throwing weapons don't do much. Your elves sound sweet though. I'll look into that. Heres an idea though guys..DONT YOU ALL THINK there should be a rule that if you charge in a line directly at your enemy your throwing spear should be +1 damage since you are charging up the power effect....?
Maybe they kept that out to not overpower some troops but realistically if you are standing or moving backwards or side to side you get a lot less power on a throw of something than when you take a couple of strides forward. I'd like to see that rule instated.

Highlordell · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:44 pm

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

your throwing spear should be +1 damage since you are charging up the power effect....?

You mean +1 Strength or +1 to Wound? I don't think its nessecary, they just shouldn't have introduced the -1 to hit in the first place, the warband scenarios already dictate that ranged fire will have a minimal impact in many cases.
As a common Corsair player, though I am annoyed, they only cost 1 point so I can't really complain, only one decent kill gets an entire warband's points back.

LordoftheBrownRing · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:13 pm

Highlordell wrote:

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:

your throwing spear should be +1 damage since you are charging up the power effect....?

You mean +1 Strength or +1 to Wound? I don't think its nessecary, they just shouldn't have introduced the -1 to hit in the first place, the warband scenarios already dictate that ranged fire will have a minimal impact in many cases.
As a common Corsair player, though I am annoyed, they only cost 1 point so I can't really complain, only one decent kill gets an entire warband's points back.

Yeah true. I did mean strength....brain fart?

Draugluin · **Posted:** Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:42 pm

As stated, all it takes is 1 or 2 kills to earn back every single point spent. If your group ignores the stupid -1 to hit rule, they're incredibly effective. even if you don't, they can still be useful.

Fallen Realm Wargear and Bow Limit question

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