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Author:	Salattu [ Tue May 26, 2020 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Hello. My question is simple - what is the best ringwraith on fellbeast? I have been thinking about the Undying because it has a huge amount of will points, allowing himself to survive and fight longer. Khamul does not please me, because he has bad magical ability and he doesn't get any remarkable combat bonuses compared to the Undying. Knight of Umbar would be more powerful in melee than the other ringwraiths, so it might be an option as well?

Author:	ja33 [ Tue May 26, 2020 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
It may be a simple question but the answer isn't likely so simple. Depending on how many people reply here, I would venture you may see several different answers. The Undying certainly is a great choice and has been an extremely popular General for years and years. But the Witch King, especially if he is loaded up with max M/W/F, the Crown of Morgul, a Morgul Blade, and other options, is a fantastic choice. Khamul and Knight of Umbar are also very popular choices. And the Dwimmerlaik and the Shadow Lord also have very useful aspects to their profile. My answer would be choose the one that best fits your army style. Need something to stay alive, deny opponent leader kill points, etc ? Then the Undying is your man....Need to mitigate enemy shooting so your combat heavy army makes it unscathed into combat ? Then the Shadow Lord is your choice....and on and on for each Wraith. Hope this helps a bit, and I am curious to see other responses as well....

Author:	mr. dude [ Wed May 27, 2020 3:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
"Best" really depends on what else is in your army, what's in your opponent's army, and how you like to play. Each Ringwraith fills a different role, so it's really up to you what you think you need. First, any Wraith on Fell Beast is going to be great in combat, they're flying monsters with magic and decent FV, so you get great usability out of any of them. Undying is fantastic, very hard to kill. I'd be careful of his Will stores in bigger games because they're doubling as Fate points, but you shouldn't be putting him in a position where he's taking that many wounds anyway. Good solid choice. Again, whether he's the best choice depends on how you like to play and what your army looks like. Khamul is my personal favourite. He's a worse spellcaster than most of the others, but his ability to regain Will means you can afford to throw more dice, which helps offset the higher score he needs to cast each spell. Also, he can be FV6 if you need it, which is HUGE against Elves. He's my favourite because he rewards an aggressive playing style. Knight of Umbar I've actually never used, I'll have to let someone else speak on his behalf. I see his main value being 3 Might and the possibility to not lose Will, with Combat Mimicry being a nice bonus on top of that. 3 Might and getting to keep his Will are both very good rules, he's definitely powerful. Witch King is mayhem. With his crown, he's the best spellcaster of the Nine, he has the most attacks, he gets the Morgul Blade (which means he can assassinate enemy heroes very effectively). He's also the most expensive if you're fully kitting him out, so he's not necessarily an auto-include. My other favourite is the Tainted. I'll admit I've never taken him on Fell Beast, I haven't used him in this edition. However, all of the changes since the last edition have been very positive for the Tainted. His rule has always been devastating, the ability to deny Heroic Moves is unbelievable and will win you games; the ability to deny Stand Fast means you win any time your opponent breaks. You have to build your army with him in mind; when you use his rule, your army doesn't benefit from Stand Fast either, so you'd better have high courage or Fury. I think he's the most challenging of the Nine to use properly, but can be the most powerful. Shadow Lord: depends on if your army has reason to fear shooting. That could mean you have low defence, it could mean you have no shooting at all, it could mean you have lots of shooting and want to completely control the shoot phase. Dwimmerlaik creates a bubble that enemy heroes are afraid of and want to avoid. He's hard to use because he's expensive and has no Might, I see him more as the second Ringwraith you take in an army with two or more, but he's certainly valuable and makes his points back simply through the fear he puts in your opponent/ Betrayer: I love Shelob and the Spider Queen. The Betrayer is similar to both, but with magic. I don't need to say much more than that, if you want something killed, he'll kill it. His magic is on par with Khamul, and he doesn't regenerate Will, but I see magic as a bonus for him. He is a flying monster with Bane of Kings. That's terrifying. Dark Marshall: In my most recent topic in Army Help about Mathhammer, I mention how I never used to value banners until I started doing this statistical analysis. Banners help almost every single troop type available to Mordor. Really up to you how you choose to take said banners, whether they're actual banners or the Dark Marshall. That and he has FV6 which is beautiful. I wouldn't even rule out a generic Wraith, like 2/8/2 on Fell Beast. There's a use for that. I think the common answer you're going to get from all of us is "it depends". We can tell you our favourites, but there's really no best.

Author:	Salattu [ Wed May 27, 2020 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Isn't the combat mimicry of umbar little more than a nice bonus? Let's say that the enemy has a balrog (just an example), can't umbar in this case get a fight value of 10 and high strenght and 4 attacks making it a superior combatant over the other ringwraiths? Khamul seems good as long as he wins fights vs small enemy units but umbar seems theoretically to be able to fight any enemy on the board?

Author:	mr. dude [ Wed May 27, 2020 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Yeah, I call it nice bonus because it's not the ability you're using most often with him. You're right, there are certain cases where you have no other answer to a big model, and Knight of Umbar can match them. Khamul is good at killing lots of small units because it keeps fueling him. And since you can keep fueling him, you can afford to throw lots of dice to cast his spells. I've done 5 dice Compels with him, because I know he'll get the Will back. If you have to fight a big hero, Khamul is (I believe along with the Witch King) the only Ringwraith with heroic strike. So cast a transfix, heroic strike, in most cases you win the fight. Like I said, it's not that one is objectively better than the other, each one of the Ringwraiths can reward you for playing a certain way.

Author:	Salattu [ Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Ok, i looked up the old and new profiles. Here are the best ringwraiths: If you need nazgul on foot, choose either darkmarshal or shadowlord. No other options. Dark for cheap banner, shadow vs heavy bow. If you need nazgul on fellbeast, choose either witch king with crown, khamul, shadowlord or betrayer. No other options. Witch king for multitask, khamul for cheaper multitask, shadowlord vs heavy bows, betrayer to support poisonous troops. Others are too nerfed. So, the next question is, how to know when u face heavy bows? If u do, then shadowlord is always overpowered, but it is not easy to know when the enemy will pick bows. All other nazguls depend on ur own army, but the shadow depends on the enemy army!

Author:	mr. dude [ Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
I disagree strongly with your list there. On foot, you can do well with Dark Marshall, Undying, Tainted, Betrayer, Shadow Lord, Dwimmerlaik, no-name Wraith, even the Witch King. I wouldn't rule out the Knight of Umbar either. Khamul can survive on foot, he can do well with Easterlings, but it's not an ideal situation for him. On Fell Beast, any Ringwraith is fantastic, again, depending on what your army needs. At the end of the day, it's a flying monster. That's powerful no matter how you put it. Like I said in my first reply, each of them has a specific use, they all have powerful rules. It's really up to how you use them. As for the Shadow Lord, if you don't know what your opponents are bringing, then the question you're asking yourself is if you're afraid of any kind of bowfire. If your army is entirely D4 and on foot, the answer is yes. If your army is D5 and on foot, you're afraid of Elf and Dwarf shooting. Crossbows are a problem for anything under D7. To sum that up, if you have a reason to fear shooting (whether it's because your army is slow or has low defence), you can play it safe and take the Shadow Lord.

Author:	Asamu [ Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Depends on your list. The Witch King is the most versatile, since he's the best caster and the best combatant, with 3 might, heroic strike, and 3 attacks, but he's also the most expensive. Khamul is a safe pick because, like the Witch King, he's versatile. Khamul is never a "bad" choice - his rules are always useful, and offset his worse casting values (which isn't that big of a deal, tbh; you have enough will to throw some extra at spells, and he can refill). The lack of heroic strike is the main downside of the other wraiths, and is why I'd always take Khamul or the Witch King over the Knight of Umbar or Betrayer (Unless playing Harad, but there's a strong argument to ally for the Shadow Lord in that case). The Shadow Lord is great if you want to protect your army from shooting (which is just an extremely powerful effect, and makes him a top 3-4 pick for me) The Tainted, as mentioned by another poster, has an extremely powerful effect, and is particularly strong for lists with a lot of cavalry, which can make the most use of denying heroic moves. That the effect can hurt you if misused isn't a big deal IMO; being able to control movement is a huge deal. The Undying is great if you want a leader that won't die, but... your Nazgul generally shouldn't be at much risk of dying. He's great for the old all fellbeast lists, but not so much for a more normal army. The Dark Marshal being natural Fight 6 is good, since it lets him contest/beat a lot of heroes and elves/buffed Gondor infantry. The Dwimmerlaik is abysmal in melee because of the forced 2-handed and no might, so is easily the worst on fellbeast. Overall, I'd probably put it like this: 1-4: Witch King, Khamul, Shadow Lord, Tainted - these get the most benefit from the Fellbeast, whether it be due to the mobility to make the best use of their abilities, or because of the combat stats. There is merit to any of these choices over any other choice, depending on the list composition. 5-8: Betrayer, Dark Marshal, Undying, Knight of Umbar - these benefit less from being on a fellbeast than the above, but are still good options, though I think one of the top 4 is almost always a better choice. 9: Dwimmerlaik - Should never be on a fellbeast. He's fine on a horse, but is purely a support character, and you don't want him in combat due to the 2-handed weapon, 0 might, and high will cost of using his ability to force extra might from the opponent. Notably, the Witch King is by far the best wraith in combat when not on a fellbeast.

Author:	Salattu [ Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Btw, i looked up rules once more, and it seems that every named ringwraith has been given a cost of 1 will per turn to use their ability, even the betrayer, shadowlord and dark marshal, even the undying which is mad. So, which ringwraiths are best considering the nerf? 1. Witch king is the best both on foot and mounted. It s crown has been buffed so WK has a lot more will dices to throw than just the maximum of 20 points. It can also counter enemy wizard. It is an absolute beast. 2. Tainted. I know now that tainted can nicely prevent enemy cavalry using heroic moves in melee combat, which can be an important factor. Also, tainted gets 1/6 chance to cause a free wound, which is also a small bonus if he is on fellbeast. 3. The rest have nowadays a high skillcap. For example, darkmarshal could give a banner in a couple important turn which would be valuable, but he can also waste his will fast if enemy doesn't put enough units into his range. Shadowlord cannot anymore spam the ability to block enemy arrows, so, i wouldnt call him powerful anymore, because even though his ability can situationally protect a lot of army from arrows, but his army would need to use heroic marches into enemy or use cavalry or the enemy will hit and run strategy and he runs out of will. Now also khamul is a lot worse, because if he kills only 1 normal enemy the cost will make his ability useless. Etc. So, i would say pick either tainted or witch king if you are a beginner. Idk about pro games though. And about archers i would say some factions have overpowered achers so if someone uses such a 'low' tactic then just accept ur loose, do not try to pick shadowlord because a good enemy will now make his will go down fast. Any opinions?

Author:	mr. dude [ Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Witch King is insanely powerful thanks to his crown, he's always a good choice. My opinion doesn't change regarding the others, I posted this knowing about their extra cost to use each ability. Khamul's rules have stayed the same since his release, any topic about him across this site is still valid today. The only difference is that he and the Witch King are the only two Ringwraiths who get Heroic Strike. He's still a very good choice, his magic is harder to cast but you can always throw more dice because he'll regain his will, he can be FV6 to beat most Elves and match most big heroes, he's great. Dark Marshall: He has a natural FV6, which is great, and you probably don't need to use the banner effect every turn. The first few turns of combat, sure, then pick and choose depending on how much of an advantage you do or don't have. He's still awesome. Shadow Lord: If your opponent is shooting you, you're within 24" of them. Your worst case scenario is that they call Heroic March and back up 4.5" a turn while you advance 6", then you're only gaining 1.5" a turn and the Shadow Lord will run out of will protecting your models. That scenario is kind of impossible because most boards aren't long enough for it to happen. More likely is that you close the distance in 3-8 turns, depending on Heroic Marches and if the opponent backs up. You're not losing too much Will protecting the army with that, and he's still got all the benefits of being a Ringwraith on Fellbeast once you're close enough. Undying: You have to spend Will to regain Will with him, so that ability is only useful if you have multiple spellcasters. What I consider his main ability is using his Will points as Fate, that's still there, he's still very hard to kill. Betrayer: If you're taking him in a Mordor army, you're not using his Master of Poisons rule anyway. You're using him as a flying Spider Queen with magic. Think about how powerful the Spider Queen already is, now lose one point of FV and the Broodlings to add courage, flying, durability, and spells. That's a scary thought. This edition's nerf was needed because they were all so powerful before. They're still really powerful and game-changing, just require a bit more practice. So my answer is the same as it was in my first reply: There's no "best" Ringwraith, there's no Ringwraith that will always be better than another, it all depends on what you want your army to have. Undying is a great leader because he's so hard to kill. Khamul is a beast in combat. Witch King, if you have the points, will dominate the game. Tainted, if you have Shamans and tough troops, will ruin your opponent's plans. Betrayer can assassinate most heroes in one turn. Dark Marshall gives you a banner, I've recently learned that banners are pretty much essential to any troop type Mordor has. Shadow Lord can still protect your army from shooting long enough for you to get into combat. Knight of Umbar still has 3 Might, doesn't lose Will when he win his fight, and Combat Mimicry was situational anyway, it's not something you use every turn. Dwimmerlaik had the biggest nerf, but there's still a 6" bubble of fear around him and you can use that.

Author:	Salattu [ Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Hello, about ringwraits on fellbeasts again: 1. Does Knight of Umbar counter enemies who heroic strike. For example, fly into Aragorn, and Aragorn heroic strikes from F6 to F10, does it mean that Knight also gets F10, or does Knight only get F6 and gg. Also. Can Knight of Umbar Knock Down let's say a balrog by charging it and havin same strenght or does it more MORE strenght than the enemy to knock it down? Will the attack bonus on charge anyways stack (from A4 to A5?). 2. Does Khamul the easterling loose will in battle if he does not wound anyone? 3.Is a ringwraith on fellbeast good if used only as a support instead of fighting? 4. Has anyone tried Dark Marshal with an idea it is F6 vanilla ringwraith and forget the banner could it be a viable strategy giving a bit better spells compared to khamul? 5. What would be the best 2 picks for a total noob and awful player. What about the worst 2 picks? I am such an awful player I really gotta ask this straight... ^___^

Author:	Thurgardt [ Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Knight of Umbar: The timing is important. The wording of the rule states that you have to use that ability before heroic actions are called so you only get the stats at the beginning of the phase - without strike. That is a real bummer especially if you consider your only wound.... No you cannot knock down the Balrog because you need to have a higher strenght than the charged model but you copy the value. Khamul: yes, he still has the will of evil rule and therefore loses willpoints at the end of the round as usual. If he could not cause wound he cannot compensate. Black Marshal: you take that guy for the banner effect and/or the 4+ instill fear. If you do not plan to make use of that, take khamul. He can get to F6 via ability too, could strike if needed and can get back will points by killing warriors. the noob wraith: I like the Undying a lot. If you want to be flexible with your wraith or just dont know exactly how you want to tailor your list, take that guy on a fellbeast. He has enough willpower for casting AND combat. He won't die fast thanks to his many fate points and is therefore often not taken as a primary target. Bonus points or better no points for your opponents if he is your leader - he is really a tough nut to crack and very forgiving for the beginner. Just don't throw him against F6 heros. Try to get on captains and warriors and throw stuff on the big heroes or hold these down with magic.

Author:	Salattu [ Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Thanks a lot for answers! You are probably right that the undying is the most noob-friendly choise, and khamul is second best. I think i will give those 2 ride first! About darkmarshal, do you have any extra tips about what kind of situations should he use his instill fear spell. Some situations i can imagine are having priority late, enemy horses have charged, dark mardhal flies in and instills fear and horses go back? And second question, fellbeasts are a key part of mordor, but what kind of army do they need around them. Do they need some kind of powerful allies, such as trolls, so they can spell the enemy. Or are fellbeasts more like independent fighters and dont need powerful fighters to ally with? Is transfixing an enemy hero worth eill points if there is not any powerrful monster or powerful units to hit?

Author:	Thurgardt [ Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best ringwraith on fellbeast
Due to FAQ you cannot "fear enemies out of combat". Sorcerous blast works though but thats not in your repertoire. I use instill fear when I get prio and need a) to break through enemy lines or b) want to disable a part of his formation or c) get people away from objectives. If models flee, they cannot move further that turn so they cannot take part in combats (if you do not charge them). Nice way to get some traps going and get a local superiority in numbers for a turn. Fellbeasts can be used as assassination tools, mobile hurl platforms and/or for raw damage output every turn. In all of these cases you want enough troops to hold the line and occupy the enemy and if you use them as a damage tool you want your fellbeasts not to be trapped behind the enemy lines and been charged by a high fight value hero. That happens more often than not if you are greedy and don't watch out. If you pack in another troll you might get problems with your overall numbers. And don't be too hasty to throw them into the fray - they are more like scalpels and not the three trolls. A second spellcaster is a good addition too. Your fellbeast wraith commands a target in position and the second caster uses a channeld transfix on it to half that fight value or uses a black dart to kill that now lonely banner model. But keep that second caster affordable (cheap ringwrait, mouth of sauron...) - numbers are important. In most cases you want to make use of that expensive fellbeast (6-10 orcs!) and therefore use it for combat. Sure you cast that opportunistic command or transfix but with the exception of the Undying I give my ringwraith a purpose while list building. Fellbeast = do damage, horse = do magic. The Witch-King might be an exception. If you go for the magic part I ll try to slow a big enemy hero down with a spell every turn even before the lines clash. If you want to try on a big hero in combat - a thing most ringwraith don't want to - make sure you have a plan. Be patient, wait for the moment, then don't be stingy with willpower or other ressources to make everything connect - you might only get that one chance and your fellbeast might get swarmed in the round after. Make a plan for your willpower before the battle. E.g. a 2/12/2 ringwraith on fellbeast will use 1 to be alive, 7 for combat and 4 for magic/resist. Sure you have to be flexible on the battlfield but a rough plan ahead prevents you from spending those will points like treats.

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