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[SBG] Dwarves of Erebor
http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=18583		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Thu May 27, 2010 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  [SBG] Dwarves of Erebor
As the title says, this is a 600 point Dwarf list (using the Erebor set for army compostion) and just fancied getting some thoughts on it (it's largely limited to what models I currently own as well). No real use as of yet and I don't really play SBG, but just fancied making it anyhow ^^ Without further ado:

Gimli - 90pts
Balin w/Durin's Axe - 95pts
Captain w/Shield - 65pts
Warriors w/Shields x 20 - 180pts
Warriors w/Great weapons x 15 - 120pts
Rangers w/Dwarf Longbows x 5 - 50pts

One thing that confuses me is why Dwarf Longbows aren't just Dwarf Bows with extra range or Elf Bows with less range... Why do they randomly lose the S3, but gain 6" (or however much it is)? Why even call the Dwarf Longbows instead of bows?


As for a 350 points list, I have two that I'm trying to choose between which are as follows:

Gimli - 90pts
Warriors w/Shields x 20 - 180pts
EITHER Warriors w/Great weapons x 10 OR Rangers w/Dwarf Longbows x 8 - 80pts

Which is better? I would say that the Rangers are decent because you get shooting as well as the extra range (compared to Dwarf Archers) and can hide behind a shield wall. However, I know that many people swear by the two-handed weapons, but I'm not a fan of them really: I'd rather not reduce my chances of winning the fight, even if it means when I DO win (less likely to happen though) I am more likely to wound. Sounds like a good tactic for if you can pair a hand weapon to a two-handed weapon, but Dwarves aren't likely to outnumber like, say, goblins are.

Anyhow: comment and thoughts, please :D
Author:  General Elessar [ Thu May 27, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [SBG] Dwarves of Erebor
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
One thing that confuses me is why Dwarf Longbows aren't just Dwarf Bows with extra range or Elf Bows with less range... Why do they randomly lose the S3, but gain 6" (or however much it is)? Why even call the Dwarf Longbows instead of bows?


Yes, there's been a lot of confusion over that.

I tried some tests with the two-handed weapons, and they work pretty well against Easterlings and Warriors of Minas Tirith: the Dwarf has a higher Fight, so he's still got a good change of winning the fight; he still has defence 6, so the Easterling/Gondorian will need 6's to wound; and the Dwarf doubles his chances of wounding.

For your first list, I'd try to get some more archers. A mixture of Dwarf Warriors with bow and Dwarf Rangers with bow work quite well. I'd also drop the Captain.

For the second list, I'd take the archers.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Thu May 27, 2010 7:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Anybody use house rules allowing them to remain S3? Paying 3 points for them seems a lot considering it's a normal bow, whereas an ordinary Warrior with a higher strength bow, with slightly less range, gets it for a single point.... Doesn't sound unbalancing to me, really. In fact, Elf Bows are only 2 points! What on Earth................

Anyhow, thanks for feedback. To be honest, I really don't care much about Fight values in SBG because it only comes into play if you roll the same on the attack dice (unless the One Ring rulebook changed it: I only have RotK). Still, sounds useful against high defence opponents, but are they much use against weaker opponents, such as Wood Elves/Galadhrim?

How does switching the captain for 7 Dwarf Warriors with bows sound? That's keeping it within the 33% as well or should I drop some other warriors to add in more with bows?

The rangers with longbows or take warriors with bows?

Thanks again :D
Author:  simmuskhan [ Thu May 27, 2010 10:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Higher fight value makes a bigger difference than you might think.

If you both have the same fight value, you get a 50/50 chance of winning a fight (in equal combat eg. 1 on 1).

If you have a higher fight value you win on ties.

If you roll a 1 you now have a 1 in 6 chance of winning (if they roll a 1)
If you roll a 2 you have a 2 in 6 chance of winning (if they roll a 1 or a 2)
etc.

In the end you have a 21/36 chance of winning, which is a little over 58%.

Now for every 10 fights you win about 6 of them instead of 5, that adds up pretty quickly over a game, let alone multiple games.
Author:  antlion [ Fri May 28, 2010 7:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Removing the captain for 7 Dwarf warrior bows sounds good.

I do not know the sort of scenarios you will be playing with this army, but you probably don't need Durin with his axe, Gimli and him together should be enough to work with; for scenarios revolving around heroes. (it is really tempting to give it to him though :wink: )

The other thing to consider is a banner. They work very well with your shield dwarves when you are fighting against a shield wall.
IMO at 600 points a dwarf force must include a banner to prevent the centre from falling before having a chance to flank.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Fri May 28, 2010 5:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
simmuskhan: Explained in terms of percentages, I guess that it does make more sense to care a little about it, but I still feel like all of the other stats take more precedence, even if Fight should be considered a little more strongly than I first thought ;) Cheers :D

antlion: I haven't yet got a clue as to what sort of scenarios I'll be in just yet, but it never hurts to have a list planned. What reasons are there for not taking the axe? I did consider a banner, but I didn't take one because I thought that taking 4 extra shield warriors may have been better. Does the banner allow each model in a fight within 3" re-roll an attack die (or all of them?) or is it just one per turn? If it is the first (especially with all of their attack dice, rather than just one), then it may prove a lot more useful.

Also, if I'm honest, I am a little lazy and like to try to squeeze every last drop out of the points, he he he :D


Since I ma likely to be playing all of my games with my girlfriend, she and I discussed the Ranger bow situation and she actually said it makes sense to just pay one point for them, since they have no advantages over an ordinary bow (which also costs one point in all other armies), so for our games (not official ones or against other people), I get an extra 10 points in the first list and an extra 16 points in the second list. That means that the second list can have 10 rangers, which seems much better than before.

So, for the first list:
Gimli - 90pts
Balin w/Durin's Axe - 95pts
Warriors w/Shields x 16 - 144pts
Warrior w/Banner - 38pts
Warriors w/Great weapons x 15 - 120pts
Warriors w/Dwarf Bows x 7 - 63pts
Rangers w/Dwarf Longbows x 5 - 50pts to be replaced with what? I have to keep within the 33% limit, after all :D
Author:  simmuskhan [ Fri May 28, 2010 10:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Again, sorry about the mathsiness, but the bows are very different.

Dwarf bows with strength 3, but 4+ to hit:

versus defense 4 you have a 1/2 chance to hit then a 1/3 chance to wound so a 1/6 chance to wound all together. A little under 17%.

Dwarf longbows with strength 2 but 3+ to hit:

versus defense 4 you have a 2/3 chance to hit, then a 1/3 chance to wound so a 2/9 chance to wound all together. A little over 22%

That's a 5% improvement. AND you get extra range, so it's a 5% improvement and at least one extra turn of shooting.

Let's just grab 10 archers of each type over 10 rounds of combat.

Dwarf warriors get to shoot 9 times due to the shorter distance, so
1/6 * 10 * 9 = 15 likely dead guys.

Dwarf rangers get to shoot 10 times...
2/9 * 10 * 10 = 22 likely dead guys.

Of course, it changes as defence goes up, the 3 strength sometimes gets the "step" on the to-wound chart before the strength 2 one. But it's always up on the to-hit value. It really depends who you're fighting against.
Author:  antlion [ Sat May 29, 2010 10:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
antlion: I haven't yet got a clue as to what sort of scenarios I'll be in just yet, but it never hurts to have a list planned. What reasons are there for not taking the axe? I did consider a banner, but I didn't take one because I thought that taking 4 extra shield warriors may have been better. Does the banner allow each model in a fight within 3" re-roll an attack die (or all of them?) or is it just one per turn? If it is the first (especially with all of their attack dice, rather than just one), then it may prove a lot more useful.


The only reason for not taking the axe is points, depending on scenarios it may be more useful to take extra warriors than the axe or vice versa.
(in a game where objectives are captured by having warriors within a certain distance.) But seeing as this is just for fun why not.

The banner allows the re roll of one die to win the fight, not to wound. This may seem not much. But when positioned well it can easily allow you to re-roll dice in 5 combats. When you have higher fight than your opponent it means that you have a much better chance of winning.

(My favourite tactic) 'In combats with a 2 handed axe (great weapon) and an other dwarf, the dwarf with the two handed weapon can go two handed. Then the die rolled by the other dwarf can be re-rolled effectively giving you 2 die and 1 on -1 to win the fight. (I have found this quite effective).

Your list looks good, although personally I try to have at least 48 warriors at 600 point level, I would use a list similar to this:

1XGimli
1XBalin without Durin's axe
1XBanner
15XDwarf warrior, sheild
15XDwarf warrior, two handed axe
15XDwarf warrior, bow
1XDwarf ranger 2 handed axe (seeing as you like to squeeze every drop)
49 units, 15X(S3) bows, two capable heroes, banner, 600pts
(except I would include 9 or 10 Kazard guard)
Author:  General Elessar [ Sat May 29, 2010 5:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would recommend a banner. And, like I said earlier, a mixture of Dwarf Warriors with bow and Dwarf Rangers with bow work well. The last thing I want to recommend is Iron Guard, they are quite expensive but they're very effective.
Author:  Karvag [ Sat May 29, 2010 9:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
i would also take out the 1 dwarf ranger with 2 handed axe, it would look realy weird

with the 45 warriors and 1 ranger
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Mon May 31, 2010 9:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
After a test game of 350 points doubles (to try and learn the game in basic mode and to get used to working alongside my girlfriend's elves for a doubles tournament), I used the following list:

Balin w/axe, Gimli, captain w/shield, Warrior w/banner, 5 warriors w/shields and 3 warriors w/Dwarf bows.

I later realised that it was 10 points over, but it didn't really make a huge difference (I would've removed the shields and the captain's shield).

Anyway, I took note of what had been said in here and took note of the the problems in the battle (we were HEAVILY outnumbered as she had 9 models!). Here is the new list:

Balin, son of Fundin - 75pts
Gimli, son of Gloin - 90pts
Dwarf Warrior with Banner - 38pts
6 Dwarf Warriors with Two-handed Axes - 48pts
5 Dwarf Warriors with Shields - 45pts
6 Dwarf Warriors with Dwarf Bows - 54pts
350 points exactly, 2 characters, 1 banner, 6 bows, 33.33...% bows (Is that allowed by most people? Technically, it's over the 33% rule ;) )
Author:  antlion [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:40 am ]
Post subject: 
I don't think people will mind about the bows. (I play that it is one third, but I don't think that is official)

If your playing doubles with elves it might by an idea to take dwarf ranger bowmen for the S2, S3 combination that General Elessar suggested to do in your normal army. (with dwarf rangers and warriors)

Your new list although not outnumbered as badly as the first is still very small. (it is fun having balin and Gimli fight it out to the end though :))

When playing doubles with elves I would use just Balin without durin's axe or Gimli. Then approximately 1/3 Dwarf ranger, long bow 1/3 Dwarf warrior shield 1/3 two handed axe. Maybe include a couple of Iron Guard (if you have them) when you use Balin without axe.
Author:  Tackitis [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
350 points exactly, 2 characters, 1 banner, 6 bows, 33.33...% bows (Is that allowed by most people? Technically, it's over the 33% rule ;) )


No not quite, Your exactly at 33.333%.

Remember banners count as Warriors not Heroes. Meaning you have 18 Warriors models, of which 6 are armed with bows. Exactly 1/3.

If your double partner only 9 models then I agree with the previous post. Bulk out your army as much as you can.
Author:  General Elessar [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hashut's Blessing wrote:
Here is the new list:

Balin, son of Fundin - 75pts
Gimli, son of Gloin - 90pts
Dwarf Warrior with Banner - 38pts
6 Dwarf Warriors with Two-handed Axes - 48pts
5 Dwarf Warriors with Shields - 45pts
6 Dwarf Warriors with Dwarf Bows - 54pts


Too many Heroes. How about dropping Balin and instead taking four Iron Guard and another Dwarf Warrior with shield?
Author:  theavenger001 [ Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:43 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree that you have too many heros. I can take only gimli or balin in 500 point battles, and if going for a maxed out dwarf horde only one of the two in 750 points. :shock: Switch one of the heros for more troops and maybe some elites.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:25 am ]
Post subject: 
I presume that it's best to hide Iron Guard behind Dwarves with shields? How effective is it to use Khazad Guard as a shield wall for Iron Guard and shield warriors to cover any archers/rangers with bows?

As to the bow %, I have always just done it as a third of the warriors may have bows because it makes it a little easier to work out and in GW's examples they say you need two warriors without bow for every one with it, but the main point is: at tournaments do that play it that way or are they more strict about it?

Drop Gimli, take three Khazad Guard, three Iron Guard and add in another dwarf with dwarf bow?

I am a little loathe to take the dwarf rangers because I feel that their bows are ridiculously overpriced. I admit that the range and shoot value are better than for the Dwarf bow, but it counts as an ordinary bow, which costs a single point and even an Elf Bow is only two points. I can't justify paying three times the amount of points for them... I don't think I know of any other models that have to pay extra points because of their stats...

Anyhow, to reitaerate: Drop Gimli, get 3 Khazad Guard, 3 Iron Guard and another Dwarf with bow?
Author:  theavenger001 [ Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
yep, that sounds like a good plan. 8)
Author:  General Elessar [ Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
theavenger001 wrote:
yep, that sounds like a good plan. 8)


I agree. :)
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Brilliant, I shall try to test that one out then and let you all know how it goes :D

In case you're interested in the models, you can go to http://minesandmodels.blogspot.com/ and have a look at progress so far!
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