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Help with starting SBG....
http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=18504		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Anduril Blade of Kings [ Wed May 19, 2010 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Help with starting SBG....
^ Aye, really....

For those of you who know me very well, I joined around nine months ago. Was crazed about starting WOTR. Changed my mind a month or so later. Painted for a few months...and here I am now, wanting to start SBG.

Recently re-read my Mines of Moria mini-rulebook again for the first time since November of last year, and I thought, hey, I like the look of this. I've recently started WHFB but I reckon after I finish up this last commission I'll have no problem starting SBG too. I did a game of SBG at the FLGSand had just as much fun as I did when playing WHFB, in a different way.

So I've had a browse around the LOTR section on GW for the first time in months (yes, really, months. I.E. not weeks, not hours, but many months) and decided I really like the look of Isengard, Mordor & Gondor.

My dad & older brother brother both went ahead and tried SBG too, both of them seemed to like it, and said they'll definitely play if I start it (WHFB was too complex for them, so I'm doing that on our monthly trips to Dallas, where there's a Games Workshop). Unfortunately with our hectic schedule these days we don't have time to sit down and do anything for more than an hour or two, and with four housecats and a very curious, very young sibling, leaving it until the next time isn't an option, so we need something we can set up, play & finish in one to one and a half hours. I was curious about what points level can be played in this span of time, and was also wondering what the strengths, weaknesses, and general playing styles are/can be of the armies I mentioned.

-Josh
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed May 19, 2010 6:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I wouldn't go more than 500 points then. You can actually play at 250-300 points and have a fun game if you're not trying to squeeze in a major named Hero. A couple games at that lower point level will have you familiar enough with the rules that you should be able to finish most 500 point matches in the time you need.

Welcome to the hobby! I hope you find the SBG format as fun as most of us do.
Author:  whafrog [ Wed May 19, 2010 7:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Welcome back :) SBG is great for small scale games. If you're just starting out or you have someone who doesn't know the rules as well, 250-350 point games per side is a good starting point, maybe on a 2x4 board. Once everybody knows the rules, you can probably get 500 point games into 1.5 hours, but that's pushing it IMHO unless everybody tends to move quickly. Most of my friends tend to ponder the implications of hiding behind this bush or that stone, so it takes longer :)

The main thing you're giving up is monsters and mega-heroes. What you'll want is armies that play well at low point levels where numbers aren't too big an issue, and you have a decent selection of mid-range named heroes. All three of the armies you mentioned would play well, and each is flexible enough to accommodate a variety of play styles, though Gondor can't really do the "swarm" thing, unless they're facing an army comprised of Isengard elites. The only thing Mordor lacks is decent bowmen who aren't naked, but there are plenty of ways to make up for that (drummers to get you there faster, Morannon Orcs with D6, etc).

Hope that helps...
Author:  theavenger001 [ Wed May 19, 2010 7:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Welcome to the SBG, once you get the rules down you will find that it is a very good game, lots of strategy, and some luck too. It will be great to see some pics of lotr figures painted by you battling each other.

I think that 300-500 point battles would take about that long, it depends on the scenario, and the game over all. Some games you can both be rolling terribly and not wounding so it can go a lot slower than other games. Is the time including set up and take down time? Cause that will probably take 15-20 minutes or more by itself.

For the army's, Isengaurd can be either totally offensive or defensive, if you go heavy on the xbows then they are defensive, if you go for an all combat army with just uruk warriors and bezerkers then it is offensive. Isengaurd has basically some of everything, they have a magic caster, cavalry, siege, strength, defense, fight, pikes, xbows, cheap orcs, bezerkers, etc. The only thing they don't really have is a uber hero, but at 300-500 points you probably won't be using many of those.

I know MT and Mordor both have a wide variety of units as well, but as I have not played with them I don't know strengths/weaknesses.

Hope I helped. :)

*edit, both replied before me, I guess I should type faster! :lol: (Though me and whafrog posted at the exact same time!) :o
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed May 19, 2010 7:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've just been in boring conference calls so I'm trolling OR and a couple other forums. I love my job. :rofl:
Author:  Anduril Blade of Kings [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
@ Beowulf, thanks :yay: I'm finding SBG quite fun so far, and look forward to more games, just as soon as I get my force together.

@ whafrog. On a side note, just curious what inspired the username. Thanks for the advice. Me and my main opponent are both brand new, so it'll be a learning experience. I like the idea of a small skirmish force, so giving up monsters etc. isn't a huge deal.

@ Theavenger, thanks :) I'll hopefully be able to pick up something small in a week or two to get started painting LOTR again. I'm liking the sound of Isengard.


Now another question, would an all-scout Uruk force be tangible? Would it do any good on the tabletop, and what would its strengths/weaknesses be? I'm thinking of building a heavily themed and converted Uruk-Hai scout force at the moment.
Author:  whafrog [ Wed May 19, 2010 11:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Anduril Blade of Kings wrote:
@ whafrog. On a side note, just curious what inspired the username.


It's a pretty stupid story...back before the internet there was this shooter game called Doom (I'm sure you heard of it :) ) which had this amazing new feature that you could play against each other on local networks (this was before we had a word for LAN-party). Somebody came around a corner in the game and surprised me and I shouted "WHAA!", and somebody joked that should be my username. It didn't seem complete, so I added "frog", I have no idea why.

There...you asked :)

Quote:
Now another question, would an all-scout Uruk force be tangible? Would it do any good on the tabletop, and what would its strengths/weaknesses be?


They're nominally cheaper than Uruk warriors, but they only get D4 or D5 (with shield) and no spear support. You really have to use terrain to your advantage because without spears it's harder to hold a line. Decent heroes and ferals though. If you get a regular Uruk captain you can ally in with the White Hand list if you want to mix the scouts with more heavily armed warriors or pikes (or regular orcs).
Author:  The_Dragon_of_Moria [ Thu May 20, 2010 1:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Using 'Isengard Raiders' list means that Uruk scouts are tangible especialy because you have access to cavalry in the form of Warg Riders and several low point named heroes such as Ugluk. I wouldn't use purely Uruk scouts, the majority of the force should be scouts, with 6 warg riders and maybe 6 Feral Uruks.

@ Whafrog: He would need 2 captains in order to use uruk scouts and fighting Uruk hai as LoME states that you need 1 hero per contingent.

Josh,
You could buy:
A box of Scouts
A box of Warg Riders
Ugluk and Vrasku

That gives you a 400 point army for $72. It be a good start to an 'Isengard Raiders' army.
Author:  Anduril Blade of Kings [ Thu May 20, 2010 3:34 am ]
Post subject: 
@ Whafrog....wow.....interesting story :) The world is a funny place, interesting how things come about.
We're playing on a terrain-heavy board so hopefully that'll work to my advantage.

@ Cal, cheers :) I like the look of the feral uruks, will probably pick up a blister or two.

Are Warg Riders a necessity? I'm working on some backstory on my force at the moment, and wargs/orcs don't really fit the theme unfortunately :oops:
Author:  whafrog [ Thu May 20, 2010 3:56 am ]
Post subject: 
The_Dragon_of_Moria wrote:
@ Whafrog: He would need 2 captains in order to use uruk scouts and fighting Uruk hai as LoME states that you need 1 hero per contingent.


Yeah, that's what I meant, but I didn't say it right :)
Author:  whafrog [ Thu May 20, 2010 4:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Anduril Blade of Kings wrote:
Are Warg Riders a necessity? I'm working on some backstory on my force at the moment, and wargs/orcs don't really fit the theme unfortunately


Nope, though they are great for flanking. However, there is a new Isengard scout hero, Mauhur. The SBG rules will be in the June issue of WD, and apparently he gives his group 7" movement instead of 6". So you might be covered for speed.
Author:  ShadowMaster26 [ Thu May 20, 2010 9:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Actually, both scouts and Fighting Uruk-Hai appear in the Legions of the White Hand list.
Author:  Mouth-of-Sauron [ Thu May 20, 2010 10:27 am ]
Post subject: 
The only things Unique to Izengard Raiders are Feral Uruks, Named herose such as Lurtz, Ugluk, Vrasku and probably Mauhur as well and ofc. the bigger variety of allies which is one of the biggest problems for Legions of the White Hand as they almost lack any kind of considerable allies... except for Nazgyl, but that wouldn´t be very themed would it now...

Legion of the White Hand on the other "White" Hand :lol: has a Demolition Team (useful for Siege games), Isengard Trolls, The Ballista which is also quite devastating both in small games and in Sieges, Berserkers (basically the same as Ferals but a little bit stronger and they cost more) and ofc. the Beloved Saruman and Grima.

It totally depends on your own choice, though I find Raiders to be more fun and cool looking than the Legions army (just my IMO) , but then again that one point defence difference and the lack of spea support is so drastic that it totally changes the game play and tactics... Raiders are much harder to play but swarming with Uruks? NIIiiiiiiCE :rofl:
Author:  Eorltheyoung [ Thu May 20, 2010 12:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yes I would definitely play Isengaurd and maybe Rohan(their classic enemies)......at least thats what my main armies are....
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Thu May 20, 2010 1:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Personally I think that at the 500 point and below level you would be very competitive with an Uruk Scout force. Lurtz and Ugluk are both great leaders that are completely themed. Vraskhu is a GW invention that to me just doesn’t fit in with Scouts…he's the only one in the list packing a crossbow and that makes him a movement liability. But he's pretty deadly with it so you could almost set him up somewhere as a sniper if you want I guess. I only play him if I'm building a list that also includes the White Hand crossbow Urusk and let him lead that group.

Warg Riders in SBG can be risky, especially if you have 6 or less. They have low defense and are often arrow-magnets early in the game. But they can still be pretty effective if they make it to combat. And I guess if they draw fire from your core force for a couple turns then that may be enough for their purpose. Now when you want to try out WotR at some point they start to make them more dangerous, and it does always look good to have some Warg Riders in the service of Saruman.

As for the army itself, Uruk Scouts are exactly like their heavily armored counterparts with the only exception being a point less of Defense. If you have all your melee Scouts equipped with shields then they are still equal in Defense to most other warriors in the game. Don't worry about the models as long as you are consistent. Just let your opponent know that all Uruk Scouts with a sword are equipped with shields as well.

A lot of players will discourage the use of Orc Bows, and in reality they are pretty weak, but they are still better than not having anything. I recommend maxing out your bows on your Scout force, but don't just hang back and shoot. They're not that strong. Instead keep up an advance at half-move so you can still shoot. You might take out a couple models on the way and it's that many less to worry about when you melee. Those Scouts with bows are still deadly in combat with a high Fight and Strength so the bows are just for targets of opportunity until you get into range to turn them into lunch meat with your swords. Avoid shooting at Heroes due to their higher survivability. Focus shots on calvary (you may take out their horses), banner bearers, spear support (generally lowest defense) and such. If there's a major Hero on a horse you could always shoot at him too with the hope that your hits will go to the mount instead and rob your opponent of a charging Hero.

If I remember my points correctly, you can get the following for 250 points and only one box of plastics and one Hero and I believe you will find it an effective force for its size.
Lurtz
16 Uruk Scouts with Shield
5 Uruk Scouts with Bow
Author:  Karvag [ Sun May 23, 2010 7:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Eorltheyoung wrote:
Yes I would definitely play Isengaurd and maybe Rohan(their classic enemies)......at least thats what my main armies are....


i agree, i have an isengard army, and i am going to start on rohan
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