The One Ring
http://gbain.powweb.com/

A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24349		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dorthonion [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
I stumbled across this today on fightingtigersofveda - it is slightly out of date in terms of current prices but the logic behind it still applies today. I will offer no opinion other than this is a well presented analysis by someone who has the technical and economic knowledge to go into the fine detail of what it takes to make a mini for tabletop gaming in hard plastic.
It is a long article so grab a chair and a cuppa.

http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/roarseconomics.html

And the land-raider shows at $74.25 on GW US site now...
Author:  Erunion [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Good article. There's a lot to think about in there. I understand that there is a knee-jerk reaction whenever there is any kind of price increase, but people tend to forget how slim profit margins can actually be. I'm good friends with an independent retailer and we've often discussed these kinds of things.

I do agree that GW could do some things to make the sale easier (lower cost rulebooks, electronic media, promotional discounts, etc.), but I guess they feel they are doing okay as it is.
Author:  drougole [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
That was a good read, Gamesworkshops prices are a bit high but not by an extreme amount. With the base cost for most gw products being $5o at the moment I would be happy with a drop if ten or so dollars
Author:  Dorthonion [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Here is a quick price comparison - full list prices from the manufacturers only, and the kits listed are either completely or mostly plastic (some have metal extras). I threw in some rule books for good measure. Given that the tooling costs, packaging and all the rest will be of a similar nature, the only additional cost GW have will be royalties on the Middle-earth stuff.

Games Workshop
Riders of Rohan £18.00 6 cavalry
Warriors of Rohan £15.00 12 infantry
Knights of Dol Amroth £22.50 6 cavalry, weapon & equipment choices
Easterling Kataphrakts £22.50 6 cavalry plus 2 casualties, weapon & equipment choices
Goblin Warriors £20.00 18 infantry
Hunter Orcs £20.00 12 infantry
Hunter Orcs on Fell Wargs £25.00 6 cavalry
The Hobbit AUJ rulebook £50.00 288 pages, full colour hardback, rules, background and hobby information

Warlord
Germanic Tribesmen £20.00 30 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping
Ancient British Warriors £25.00 40 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping
Dacian Warhost £25.00 40 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping
Celtic Warriors £20.00 40 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping
Classical Greek Hoplites £20.00 40 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping
Ancient Greek Hoplites £20.00 42 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping
Hail Caesar £30.00 192 pages full colour hardback, rules plus exclusive mini
Hail Caesar army lists £18.00 88+ pages covering thousands of years, many races in each book

Victrix
Athenian Hoplites £22.95 48 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping
Spartan Hoplites £22.95 48 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping
Theban Hoplites £22.95 48 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping
Mercenary Hoplites £22.95 48 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low cost shipping

Perry Miniatures
War of the Roses Infantry £18.00 40 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals
Mercenaries 1450-1500 £18.00 40 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals
Mounted Men-at-Arms £18.00 12 cavalry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals

FireForge Miniatures
Teutonic Knights cavalry 25.00euro 12 cavalry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low or free shipping
Templar Knights cavalry 25.00euro 12 cavalry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low or free shipping
Mounted sergeants 25.00euro 12 cavalry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low or free shipping
Foot sergeants 35.00euro 48 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals & low or free shipping
Deus Vult 37.50euro 192 pages full colour hardback, rules, army lists, scenarios, historical background, tournaments

Gripping Beast
Saxon Thegns £20.00 44 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals
Viking Hirdmen £20.00 44 infantry, weapon & equipment choices multi-box discount deals
Saga Rulebook £25.00 74 pages plus 4 battle boards
Saga supplements £12.00 22-28 pages plus 4 more battle boards each

Mantic Games
Elven Scout Horde £30.00 50 infantry, Mantic cases army deals
Elven Bowmen Horde £25.00 40 infantry, Mantic cases army deals
Elven Spearmen Horde £25.00 40 infantry, Mantic cases army deals
Kings of War rulebook £24.99 144 pages full colour hardback, rules, army lists, tournament pack, background material

Meh. Sorry I cannot format this more neatly.
Author:  elliodoc [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Don't forget that GW have all those high street stores and (in my experience) knowledgeable staff that help with rules explanations, advice on painting and modelling, and tabletops available for gaming. I guess their profits would be greater (or prices lower) in all they had to do was ship minis from china via the internet, with no high street presence, but personally i think the hobby would be much poorer without GW stores.

For another comparison try these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/LEGO-The-Lord-R ... 720&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Monopoly-Lord-R ... 079&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lego-Harry-Pott ... 121&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornby-R1071-Eu ... 91&sr=1-11

It would be nice if the rulebooks/sourcebooks were consolidated though!
Author:  Dorthonion [ Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Games Workshop stores existed prior to 2001, and would exist now even if they did not have the Middle-earth licences so there is no unequivocal marginal cost attributable to LotR/The Hobbit there. And how often have we heard that when people went to their local store seeking a LotR game or even some of the minis, they could not get the game and the minis would have to be ordered in as the bulk of the store and staff interest was in Warhammer and WH40K.

Has the presence of GW stores helped the overall wargaming hobby? Oh boy. Take 100 people and you will get 100 opinions on that one, ranging from the absolutely YES to the utterly NO. I am on the fence as I have seen good things in stores but then again, I have seen not so good (the GW products only even in a game feels a bit childish). In Belfast, there is an independent store about 60 yards from the GW one. It was there long before GW appeared, and is still going strong, and from what I can see, there are many independent stores and clubs supporting a huge range of games of many formats, scales and eras. Diversity is good.

LEGO - the original multipurpose bricks are great. The Technical is great. But the franchised stuff is just annoying IMO. And there would be royalties included in the price of these.
LotR Monopoly - out of print now I believe and considered a collectors items so of course it is fairly scarce now, hence the price. A few years ago they were almost giving them away when interest waned after the 3rd film. This is not a wargaming kit, so in more ways than one you are not comparing like with like.
Harry Potter - another collectable piece. Also not a wargaming kit.
Eurostar: well it is a train set. An electric train set. I used Hornby steam engines in some wargames a long long time ago but again, this is something not comparable to a plastic kit as it comes complete, painted, it has circuits...

Not all gaming minis come from China or the far east. Have you heard of Renedra? The chances are, you or other people on this site have pieces manufactured in England by Renedra, as they are the plastics experts employed by many of the best mini manufacturers in the UK.
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
In six years that one plastic kit has gone up nearly 50%. That should say something. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the current LR kit is the same one they've had (barring maybe an additional accessory sprue) since then. All the startup design costs are long paid for.
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Interesting article, it does do some good to GW...
Author:  elliodoc [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
I agree with all the arguments in favour of lower prices! I'd certaintly welcome prices closer to production costs.

I guess my point is, if we're feeling generous and looking at things from a different perspective, the price of (for example) the MOM or EFGT boxsets is comparable to other big-ticket 'toys'.

What is an interesting comparison, methinks, is the price of SBG minis compared to WFB and 40k minis. I reckon they get much better deals!
Author:  Dagorlad [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
I don't give a rat's how 'reasonable' it is for GW to charge the price they do. What [word deleted] me off is that the Australian price is insanely high. £90 for the new rulebook ($140AU) compared to the £50 price tag in the UK!!!

Forget it, there is no way I am going to play this game any more.
Author:  BizzareWarstar [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Gamesworkshops price rises are a reaction to the policies and laws of a greater Economic model. The posted article has value addressing immediate economic mechanics such as increasing resource prices leading to increasing product prices but I think it’s worth exploring (as exciting as it sounds) GW purely as a business entity, what that actually means, what GW must do to survive and what effect it has on us.

The Corporation : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y888wVY5hzw

The link is a documentary about business, how it started, by whom and what it is now. It’s not about GW or miniatures and addresses larger business but you'll notice indirect references of both as manufacturer and product. If the Economics of 40k article is an analysis of Gamesworskhops physical factors, the documentary is about its ideologies and the environment in which it lives. I’m not saying its Bible or anything, just worth considering if you are interested.
Author:  Draugluin [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
elliodoc wrote:
I agree with all the arguments in favour of lower prices! I'd certaintly welcome prices closer to production costs.

I guess my point is, if we're feeling generous and looking at things from a different perspective, the price of (for example) the MOM or EFGT boxsets is comparable to other big-ticket 'toys'.

What is an interesting comparison, methinks, is the price of SBG minis compared to WFB and 40k minis. I reckon they get much better deals!

This is just ridiculous. If they charged closer to market price, they would make less money, which is the whole point of being a business. While I agree that they have been increasing the price by a LOT recently, they have to stay in business. I'm not trying to justify them, but you have to remember that GW produces luxury goods, and even then they have an even smaller number of customers than other producers of plastic, like Lego. At least part of the price increases can be blamed on taxes and inflation, which could explain why it's so much more expensive in Australia and New Zealand (I would assume that shipping costs are relatively low, but they would be there) than elsewhere. Well, there's my 2 cents.
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
I was about to write up a post pertaining to the dangers of unfettered capitalism, but I decided this isn't the place for that. Nevertheless, I have at least a half dozen friends who would get into the game if not for the cost or who have left it because of the rising costs. I strongly feel that if the prices were slightly cheaper, there would be more players. Relegating a large portion of the minis to website-only didn't help a lot either.

I "had it out" with a GW store employee when the Warbands updates came out earlier in the year. I had (iirc) Easterling Kataphrakts, the command, Amdur and a 20-box of warriors at the register and made an offhand comment about the prices for the half boxes of plastics. The shop clerk said something along the lines of "then I guess you can do without, hey?" so I agreed and left the entire purchase and walked out.
Author:  Shieldmaiden [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Even a £50 rulebook is putting me off gaming, especially when it will be obselete in a year. I don't think I'll get enough games in to justify the purchase.

Honestly, GW need to address the issue of keeping and gaining customers. If they'd left their prices the same or similar to what they charged ten years ago, GW would be seen as a recession-beating hobby, much like videogames, and I guarantee a lot more people would be buying from them, offsetting the lower profit margins.
Author:  Lord Hurin [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Shieldmaiden wrote:
Even a £50 rulebook is putting me off gaming, especially when it will be obselete in a year. I don't think I'll get enough games in to justify the purchase.


Oh, I'm just not getting it. I got the full rules with EfGT, and I have all the profiles for the LotR characters already. I'll either copy down points values or not play with any Hobbit minis. I also don't buy the line GW have been feeding people that next two films will just be getting sourcebooks. That seems like a sales ploy to make the big rulebook seem like it will be valid for the forseeable future.
Author:  Dorthonion [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Given the costs involved, I am disinclined to expand The Hobbit forces in the way I did with my LotR. If the prices had been reasonable, then I would have gone for the much bigger forces I prefer (hordes in the films, hordes on the table - it diminishes the hero-dominance effect). So GW have encouraged me to save my cash or spend it elsewhere. Weird marketing ploy, guys, given that I would have above average disposable income. Good luck with that...
Author:  Telchar [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
Dorthonion wrote:
Given the costs involved, I am disinclined to expand The Hobbit forces in the way I did with my LotR. If the prices had been reasonable, then I would have gone for the much bigger forces I prefer (hordes in the films, hordes on the table - it diminishes the hero-dominance effect). So GW have encouraged me to save my cash or spend it elsewhere. Weird marketing ploy, guys, given that I would have above average disposable income. Good luck with that...


Yes, but the way you expanded your LOTR forces was a little bit over the top :P .

For me the problem does not lie in the fact wether or not GW's prices allow them to make profits or no, but wether I prefer the fun of gaming to the pain in my wallet. And they are really walking the border line there.
Author:  Grungehog [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
I think that the model list shown by Dorthonion earlier shows the gap between prices significantly.
Well I must say, I'm simply not buying any of it anymore, It's just not worth the Money, precisely because the price of nessesities has gone up so much, there are less jobs.
I get by, being resourceful foraging, hunting, road kill, skip diving, brewing and general stockpiling of consumables...But now days all the luxurries I buy hobbywise are putties simply to make my own minis and terrain.

I hope I stayed on topic there's my 2cents.

Do you think gw are justifying it from a royalties pt of view?
Author:  Dorthonion [ Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A reasoned analysis of the cost of minis
They (GW) will never disclose the royalties percentage but it might be possible to find that out in a year or so by some forensic accounting of the Warner Bros parent company accounts/statements to investors. IMO, plastic prices are too high and Finecast is in some other reality.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/