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| Rohan's colourless signature heroes http://gbain.powweb.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=24963 |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
It's been bugging me for a while how colourless Rohan's signature heroes, Theoden and Eomer, are. Theoden was always bad. Eowyn at least has a profile that breaks from the norm and is useful at low point levels. But now with Erkenbrand's most recent profile, there is never any reason to take the Eomer - Marshall profile. Erkenbrand is a center-piece profile, something you build an army around, because he brings so much to the table. Eomer brings nothing useful, but costs more. The Knight profile is too expensive and, imho, unnecessary since he was never on the level of Aragorn or Imrahil. This came up again for me reading the new Hobbit profiles, which are showing some interesting inventiveness for special abilities and character definition, and this makes the 10-year-old Rohan profiles look somewhat dated and boring. I'd put this in the "house rules" forum, but I'm not really looking for house rules, I'm wondering if there is any pressure we can put on GW to revisit these lackluster profiles and give them some flavour. Eomer, Theoden, even Faramir (though Faramir doesn't have any competition in his point range, which makes him more useful), and maybe some of the old orc profiles like Grishnack or Sharku. Thoughts? |
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| Author: | rumtap [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Expert Rider alone is a bit lacking in terms of special abilities for two kings of Rohan. They should at the very least act as a banner to their people as do the Fiefdom chiefs and princes. |
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| Author: | Captain Andruil [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
I agree. Some race-specific rules or a reduction in points. |
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| Author: | Constantine [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
I think the addition of unique special rules is more meaningful that a reduction in points. Theoden could have the generic increased Stand Fast range and/or he could give a bonus to all riders of Rohan to be treated as carrying spears. Regarding Eomer, first of all I think he needs to be an F6 hero. Therefore Rohan would gain assess to higher level heroes, which it now lacks. Besides the special rule he already has I would be more than pleased to see him get another one. On another note: isn't it a bit strange that Grimbold can upgrade basic troops to Helmingas giving them a strength boost, while himself is not any stronger that a generic Rohirim captain. He could at least not incur the -1 penalty when using a two-handed axe... The bottomline is that I don't think we will be seeing improvements in profiles or sourcebooks in general unless the become equivalent to the way Codices and Armybooks work, (and are published). Namely a book for each army. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Not to be a doom sayer, but once the Kingdoms of Men book came out I gave up on GW ever making any significant improvements to Rohan.  There are so many basic ways they could have improved the basic warriors as well as reviewing the Heroes, as you say, to make sure they each have a role. I really wish there was some way of applying customer pressure for some re-work on Rohan but I don't think they'll go back and do the book again. |
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| Author: | Constantine [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Quote: Not to be a doom sayer, but once the Kingdoms of Men book came out I gave up on GW ever making any significant improvements to Rohan. And then came December's FAQ and took us all by surprise. I am only kidding, Rohan needs much more than that. |
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| Author: | Damian [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Theoden and Eomer are a bit 'meh'. You do get what you pay for, but I do agree, they are colourless. A banner effect for Theoden would be perfect, Fight 6 for Eomer and 'Burly' for Grimbold would be nice. I can see a point for Eomer and Theodred though. They both bring 3 might for relatively low points costs. Once you've taken Erky (because he's very good value) where do you go if you want a Rohan army with a bucket-load of might. I think Rohan needs all that might, there are no spears so kiting around with Heroic Moves is required and there is no model with F6 or above so Heroic Strikes are needed too. Rohan can put out a lot of firepower with Outriders, Throwing Spears and no-bow-limit-riders, so Heroic Accuracy can help with removing troublesome (and lightly armoured) spearmen. The King's huntsman reinforces the idea that Rohan wants Might supremacy as he's there to remove your opponent's sources of might. I actually use Eomer Marshall of The Riddermark quite a lot. While he's not got all the shiny bits that Erky has he does have an extra point of both Will and Fate. Sometimes you can't put a price on that. He has survived magical and physical attacks that would have killed Erky (and his Horn), then gone and done something crucial in the next turn. So..... Yes Rohan's signature heroes are a bit dull, Rohan need a little bit of love from GW, but I don't think it's all doom and gloom. On the whole I think the rules changes helped Rohan in numerous small ways. Little things like Banners not being required to lose their equipment any more, the new heroic actions, the 8" range of throwing spears, the FAQ for RoR, etc, it all adds up. |
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| Author: | Son of Éomund [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
I agree that Rohan still has significant rule deficiencies that put their competitiveness at a disadvantage. I agree with most of the suggestions above to particular hero's such as Theoden receiving a banner effect or increased stand fast range and Eomer FV increased to 6. For me when it comes to army design I believe that it is important to provide a multitude of balanced profiles and rules in order to eliminate 'no-brainer' choices such as Erkenbrand. However as Daiman stated above, the recent FAQ for RoR, throwing spears 8" range, new heroic actions, etc. have all been rather nice changes so it's not all bad. That being said is there anyway to put pressure on GW to make some changes to Rohan? Not likely... They missed their chance to bring the older armies up to date with the new sourcebooks. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
I would have thought Theoden would have had the RoR upgrade, and definitely a banner effect would be in character. They could give him S3 or "Venerable" and it would still be worth it. I don't think Eomer needs F6, it's just not in keeping with the story. I could see the marshall version having something like devastating charge though, or maybe something like Eorl, except if he uses Heroic Strike maybe he rolls another die, and on a 4+ he recovers his Might; or if he wins a duel against a higher Fight opponent, he regains a previously spent Might; or... Erkenbrand can keep his horn, that seems appropriate from what I remember in the book (though he mostly led infantry I think). Yeah, like beowulf I don't really see them revisiting the Kings of Men book...but maybe when the Hobbit is all said and done and the cash cow is empty, they'll release one final "take this and run with it" version and say goodnight. |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
The FAQ didn't modify to the extent we're referencing. It made a few tweaks but the biggest of those (allowing RoR to FINALLY use their bows fully after all these years of paying for them) was crippled by the overall weakening of bow and thrown weapon fire while on the move (important tactics for WoR / RoR). Lance options for RoR, or an exception to the -1 fire/move penalty for Expert Riders. Ability for WoR to use their spear as either a thrown weapon or as a standard supporting spear (but not both in same turn). Little things like that would have helped with the rank and file troops without major issues. Some good examples of what could have been done for the Heroes have been given above as well. I greatly wish that Theoden would be a good option and not necessarily a liability. Eomer has multiple profile options...why not Theoden as well? |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Beowulf03809 wrote: or an exception to the -1 fire/move penalty for Expert Riders. That would make it very sweeping, but perhaps if there were a different rule, say "Mounted Archer", which allowed that...then it could also be applied to, say, Khand, which is also under-powered. Or they could keep the -1 fire/move penalty, but move full. |
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| Author: | Lord Hurin [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Theoden should really have an alternate profile for the Battle Pelennor Fields after Gandalf healed him. Even the book states that his people referred to him as "Theoden Ednew" or "The Renewed" after Saruman's influence was lifted. Some Will, an additional Might and perhaps another Attack or one more Fight would give him some added punch. I think either +1 Fv for mounted Rohirrim and/or the ability to use their spears as lances and to support (which they were used for in the books) would help enormously. |
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| Author: | SuicidalMarsbar [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
The next hobbit rulebook might allow throwing spears to function as real spears, that'd be enough for me... As stated before, there is no sign in his profile that Theoden is capable of any of his deeds in the book, like killing Suladan. He definitely needs something to beef him up. Banner effect would be nice, but something that aids his troops when they are outnumbered may be a tad more thematic no? Either way i totally agree, should we use a petition website to get them to release an article with a new profile for him? |
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| Author: | LordElrond [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
I thing that'd be a great idea. I'm all for pestering GW!   Also for last alliance or at least high elf models?   
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| Author: | Constantine [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Quote: .but maybe when the Hobbit is all said and done and the cash cow is empty, they'll release one final "take this and run with it" version and say goodnight. That would be very sad... |
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| Author: | Beowulf03809 [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
I wouldn't expect another rule book. The Hobbit rule book is basically like the One Ring rule book, not a basic paperback rule like came out with the first LotR movie release boxes. I expect journeybook / sourcebook updates in the $25 or so range. I don't expect another big hard back to come out in just a year. |
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| Author: | theavenger001 [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Beowulf03809 wrote: I wouldn't expect another rule book. The Hobbit rule book is basically like the One Ring rule book, not a basic paperback rule like came out with the first LotR movie release boxes. I expect journeybook / sourcebook updates in the $25 or so range. I don't expect another big hard back to come out in just a year. This. though I do expect them to release a new big hardback once all the movies are out, maybe Christmas 2014, or sometime 2015. |
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| Author: | Lord Hurin [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Once again, I believe GW will issue a Hobbit rule book for each film. Why else would they brand it "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey" Rather than simply "The Hobbit"? |
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| Author: | Dorthonion [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
This is another instance of how GW has lost focus. The basis of any game is a basic stat line for the bog-standard warrior. All other stat lines are developed from that. Other characteristics, powers, abilities, devices, weapons, mounts etcetera can enhance stat lines or add capabilities but these come at additional points cost. And that is where GW keeps tripping up, and not just in LotR/The Hobbit but also in WH and WH40K (just take a look at other forums and listen to the griping every time a new codex is released and powerful units are nerfed and others end up weirdly lopsided in some fashion). In part this all comes back to the limitations of the humble d6 as the chief instrument employed in the game - after all, there are only 6 possibilities with 1 die. It also comes back to there apparently not being a thorough overview of how capable any mini should be in the games and there should be some consistency. There are exceptions - the Nazgul become more powerful the closer they are to Mordor, so something could be done for that, and Gandalf the White is a more potent proposition than Gandalf the Grey. There has to be room to distinguish the likes of Erkenbrand from other named heroes of Rohan and from normal Rohirrim captains/RRG troops. I hate seeing heroes relegated to 'also-ran' status. It spoils the fun. |
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| Author: | Damian [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rohan's colourless signature heroes |
Quote: The next hobbit rulebook might allow throwing spears to function as real spears, that'd be enough for me... I can't think of anything worse for Rohan. At the moment Rohan plays differently to most other armies because they have no spears. If you give them spears then they will just be Gondor with worse Defence... and that doesn't sound like fun to me. Rohan has all the tools needed to crack a spear block, you just have to be patient, shielding with your front line while picking off their rear ranks with bows and throwing spears, heroically moving (running away) and giving them another dose of shooting. Eventually you'll be in a position to pick your fights and pull all the spear support away, it just takes time and timing. While this works just fine it does get a bit repetitive and is a very defensive playstyle. What Rohan really lacks is heavy hitting. With the exception of Sons of Eorl there is nothing that can deliver a really nasty charge and switch defence into attack. I like the fluid playstyle of Rohan, but they need to be better rewarded for an aggressive charge. A small change like making Rohan Throwing Spears give +1 to wound when thrown during a charge would be enough for me. Those extra kills will rack up over the course of a game. Don't make Rohan into Devlan Mud Gondor. |
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