The One Ring :: View topic - What's the deal with Finecast?

Are we permitted to talk about their business strategies if we're not being negative? Just take more of a speculative tone or whatever.

As to the advertising I remember in one of my old LOTR trilogy video-games or the movies (I think it was the DVD's) actually had an insert in it for GW's LOTR. I already played at the time But I thought "that's brilliant". Wish they'd do it again

Yeah GW really need to get their [word deleted] in gear. I know it's a niche hobby but even adverts in film and videogame magazines would go a long way into getting people into it.

People will buy EMPIRE or whatever for The Hobbit feature on the front, see an advert in it for this Games Workshop thing and get online and look for it. If they had a more accessible website as well to try and get more people into it. At the moment it's fairly dense so if I were them I'd hire some PR advertising people and spend some of the money on that.

hollowcrown wrote:

I've been a GW fan boy for over 10 years now. I started playing because friends did it so. In all those years i've never seen any advertisement in any form other than Deagostini.

I don't really get why they don't even try to atract a greater audience. :roll:

Nobody does plastic better than GW

Author:	hollowcrown [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:	What's the deal with Finecast?
So I heard GW brought out Finecast sprues to replace metal hero and elite miniatures. Then I heard they were phasing it out. So what's the plan...is it to phase out Finecast for entirely plastic heroes and elite kits? What will happen to the old models in that case? Or will heroes and old models remain Finecast but new models will be entirely plastic? What are the pros and cons of Finecast vs Metal vs Plastic?

Author:	JamesR [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
There are plenty of places on the forum to read about all the shortcomings of fine cast. Finecast replaced metal. It was a cheap stop-gap while GW makes the transition to entirely plastic lines. That's about it lol

Author:	mertaal [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
The issue of GW phasing fine cast out is a rumour rather than a fact. However, it does have quite a bit of credence, but I wouldn't expect some sort of overnight announcement. Nobody does plastic better than GW. Everybody does resin ( which is what fine cast is supposed to be) better than GW. The main issue is that finecast/metal has rather low setup costs, but is more expensive to manufacture, due to casting miniatures being a somewhat labour intensive process. Plastic on the other hand is an almost totally automated process, meaning it is very very cheap to manufacture plastic sprues. However, the set up costs are very high. This means that GW is unlikely to release any models in plastic that it doesn't think will sell very well. Those releases (Laketown Guard, for example) are likely to be in fine cast, regardless of whether they are character models or rank and file. Plastic has lower detail levels than metal or resin, although the level of detail GW is getting nowadays is more and more impressive. Metal is an excellent material, but expensive. Nowadays resin can give better and sharper results, when produced correctly. Resin is a cheaper material, but slightly trickier to cast in well. You can't just buy a machine and spin cast it for good results, you need to use vacuum chambers etc, which means it is a multi-stage process. I'm not actually familiar with the precise differences between the manufacturing process of fine cast and the other types of resin most other companies use. I imagine that GW was trying to develop a manufacturing process which was as simple in nature as metal, but gave resin-like results. I can honestly say, without GW bashing, that fine cast is not a high quality product, even when cast perfectly. It suffers from shrinkage, has a slightly odd texture and is bendy, so not ideal for very small components. Pretty much every other resin on the market is superior, although I've heard that the new Privateer Press product and other "restic" (resin-plastic hybrids) has problems too. The bottom line is that fine cast is very prone to casting errors, especially with regard to the very fine detail it promises to deliver. They are often missing, presumably due to air bubbles.

Author:	hollowcrown [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
Oh so all the big pricing is basically because they've bought a lot of new high tech equipment and need to pay that off? And the quality issues must mean the technology is not quite as good as they wanted. I actually have a fine cast Boromir, it seems okay, looks like it might be okay for conversions and stuff but I think I'd only buy it if I had no other choice due to the stories I've heard about it.

Author:	mertaal [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
Big pricing has more to do with the fact that they have a diminishing customer base, but need to keep the shareholders happy. They're recording the same profits but with higher prices, that means they're shifting less units. They may even want to reduce their customer base, as it's easier to manage a low volume high margin business than a high volume low margin one. At the end of the day though, it's all speculation. People love to bandy about theories about GW's business strategies, etc. As long as I've been back in the hobby (wargaming in general, not the GW "hobby" only) everyone has bitched and moaned and insisted that GW has priced themselves out of the market. And yet they're still the largest operator in the market place BY FAR. It's not permitted to complain about them here, so I'll have to leave the negative. The positive though, is that they really do make awesome plastic kits. Wyrd Miniatures just invested in some very cool looking stuff, but with that exception, there's nobody even in the same ballpark as GW when it comes to the quality of their plastic- especially the bigger pieces.

The One Ring http://gbain.powweb.com/

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Author:	hollowcrown [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
Are we permitted to talk about their business strategies if we're not being negative? Just take more of a speculative tone or whatever. Also are WHFB and 40K popular? With the WHFB Total War game on the horizon and the strength of Dawn of War that has to be bringing in some dollar? Basically I got into the hobby when I was young, about 11. I did it up until I was 15/6 when other things took priority and I gave up painting and buying new miniatures. Now I'm 22 and preparing to get back into painting having taken a new interest in it from an artistic level. I'm fine to buy cheap minis on eBay but obviously that supply will run out at some point. The reason I stopped was money issues as well as time but a know a lot of people who started at age 10/11 and stopped as other things became more important in life so that's factor. LoTR was big back then but I think GW advertising a bit more would obviously help them in some way, getting the young'uns into the hobby. They also have to look at the economy. Companies like Sony make losses on PS4s but make up the money on the games for the system so maybe GW could try a variation on that. It just makes no sense in an economical situation like this where high price technology is going down in price rapidly but GW charge so much on basic stuff like a sprue of plastics. Overall I'm not a business analyst though so you can ignore everything I say. This isn't bashing btw, I understand what GW have to do, just trying to understand the situation and where the company is going in the future.

Author:	whafrog [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
hollowcrown wrote: Are we permitted to talk about their business strategies if we're not being negative? Just take more of a speculative tone or whatever. I guess we'll find out Just avoid calling each other sycophants and h8ters (as happened in recent threads that devolved) and we'll be okay

Author:	JamesR [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
As to the advertising I remember in one of my old LOTR trilogy video-games or the movies (I think it was the DVD's) actually had an insert in it for GW's LOTR. I already played at the time But I thought "that's brilliant". Wish they'd do it again

Author:	hollowcrown [ Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
Yeah GW really need to get their [word deleted] in gear. I know it's a niche hobby but even adverts in film and videogame magazines would go a long way into getting people into it. People will buy EMPIRE or whatever for The Hobbit feature on the front, see an advert in it for this Games Workshop thing and get online and look for it. If they had a more accessible website as well to try and get more people into it. At the moment it's fairly dense so if I were them I'd hire some PR advertising people and spend some of the money on that.

Author:	Gene Parmesan [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
JamesR wrote: As to the advertising I remember in one of my old LOTR trilogy video-games or the movies (I think it was the DVD's) actually had an insert in it for GW's LOTR. I already played at the time But I thought "that's brilliant". Wish they'd do it again I recently opened the box from the DVD reissue of Ralph Bakshi's LOTR and found a flyer promoting War of the Ring. I don't remember the flyer coming with the DVD, but I can't think why I'd have put one in the box myself. Smart move on GWs part.

Author:	Ukfreddybear [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
I agree GW's promotion is very insular and relies heavily on word of mouth. For instance, My lad signed up for a 40K beginner session last week after accompanying me to the store and was given an invitation to bring a friend. So I took them both today for 4 hours then we came home and built minis for another 3 hours. They went to bed watching the Ultramarines movie. They are already hooked. But they are both only 11 so easily pleased. I know there is a schools league but that only occurs if an existing player decides to start a club up at school. GW do not to my knowledge visit schools to show them demo games etc in hope of getting new clubs running. As for finecast, It was absolutely terrible when it first came out, I don't care how many people say otherwise. However, since then, GW have worked hard to rejiggle the formula and I am actually quite impressed with it lately. The controversial new Hobbit Laketown guard are quite tasty indeed detail wise for instance and I had no issues at all with the two 40K blisters I purchased either.

Author:	Gene Parmesan [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
Like the nursery rhyme, when it is good it is very very good, when it's bad it's horrid. I've had a decent run of it, only one defect which was exchanged with no quibble.

Author:	Jobu [ Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
One of the big differences developed in recent years is the use of spin casting with new resin. This newer resin also less dense than metal and solidifies cooler. But it is also a slightly softer product and it solidifies fairly rapidly. If one is not careful in the mixing and poring then one can introduce bubbles which will stay in the mold. GW wants to keep using spin casting because that is what they have and it is relatively cheap. I think they had a steeper learning curve than they anticipated, particularly with adapting older miniatures to the new material. But I think UKFB can speak more to this than I.

Author:	Lorindol [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
hollowcrown wrote: Yeah GW really need to get their [word deleted] in gear. I know it's a niche hobby but even adverts in film and videogame magazines would go a long way into getting people into it. People will buy EMPIRE or whatever for The Hobbit feature on the front, see an advert in it for this Games Workshop thing and get online and look for it. If they had a more accessible website as well to try and get more people into it. At the moment it's fairly dense so if I were them I'd hire some PR advertising people and spend some of the money on that. I've been a GW fan boy for over 10 years now. I started playing because friends did it so. In all those years i've never seen any advertisement in any form other than Deagostini. I don't really get why they don't even try to atract a greater audience.

Author:	Dorthonion [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
Quote: Nobody does plastic better than GW I think Tamiya, Hasegawa, Revell, Dragon, Trumpeter, Airfix, Italeri, Zvezda, Plastic Soldier Company, Victrix, Perry's, Mini Art, ICM, Hobby Boss, Bronco Models, Meng Model, AFV Club, Cyber-Hobby, Mirror Models, Academy, Masterbox, Kinetic and others would hotly dispute that. GW makes the claim, and some gamers support it, but the fact is that kits of real-world vehicles, people, aircraft and ships at scales both smaller and larger than 28mm, are demonstrably more complex, detailed and have more options available than GW or any other fantasy/sci-fi manufacturer has ever offered. My background in gaming started with actual toy soldiers and assembled kits, mostly of WW2 items. Stuff I built 40 years ago had considerably more complexity than many of today's gaming hobby offerings and it did not have the benefit of CAD, scanning and all the other innovations that have come along since, not to mention the advances in materials, paints and adhesives. This is NOT GW bashing: this is a little dose of reality. Marketing from any source has to be scrutinised and not accepted as canon.

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Author:	hollowcrown [ Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
Lorindol wrote: hollowcrown wrote: Yeah GW really need to get their [word deleted] in gear. I know it's a niche hobby but even adverts in film and videogame magazines would go a long way into getting people into it. People will buy EMPIRE or whatever for The Hobbit feature on the front, see an advert in it for this Games Workshop thing and get online and look for it. If they had a more accessible website as well to try and get more people into it. At the moment it's fairly dense so if I were them I'd hire some PR advertising people and spend some of the money on that. I've been a GW fan boy for over 10 years now. I started playing because friends did it so. In all those years i've never seen any advertisement in any form other than Deagostini. I don't really get why they don't even try to atract a greater audience. Advertising is a massive part of many companies budget but GW don't do it at all which is incredibly baffling for a company on the stock exchange.

Author:	kidterminal [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
Dorthonion is correct in regards to military model kit makers they are by far the best at plastic modeling. I do think GW has improved the quality of their plastic models dramatically.

Author:	Little_Odo [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
I read an interview with a GW upper-echelons bod many moons ago that basically stated GW company policy was NO Advertising and NO Cut-Price Sales. This doesn't make sense to me but obviously works for them as a business model. I would love to see more people joining in with our hobby, and I am sure that advertising and the occasional promotion would bring more new blood in, as well as help many of us complete the last little bits of our armies without having to wait too long between paydays.

Author:	kidterminal [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
They are squeezing their 40K customers for every penny/pence? they can get. They are doing this by hitting the customers they have left with surprise "must have" items. Basically the corporate goons have learned the wargamer "oh shinny" reflex so they are releasing new models on a limited time basis in an effort to capitalize on this reflex. They can't do that with the Hobbit because of their merchandising contract so they are releasing new models for each movie and basically expecting people to find out about them on their own. As I've said before they have squandered their chance at a wargaming boom akin to the one they had with the LOTR movies.

Author:	VandalCabbage [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: What's the deal with Finecast?
Yeah, when I used to play warhammer 40k like only two of the eight or so regular players at my GW store had their armies painted, which at the time I assumed was because they kept buying more, gluing them together and chucking them on a board. And my store manager is actually a genuinely nice guy and the place has good espirit de store. Whereas whenever I got LoTR/Hobbit models I felt the need to paint them. Part of the problem is that GW is able to obscure stat creep because of 40k's complicated points calculation, whereas with SBG it is much easier to spot bad stats and there is significant uproar over non-fluffy units. 40k's fluff is owned by GW so they define fluff. 40k has just as good a chance as SBG (IMO) to be a really good game - it's lore can be really good (the Horus Heresy novels, for example) and it has a massive fanbase. It just has suffered from similarly bad management decisions.