Supporter? I thought they were employees

Even a crack dealer knows he has to keep his customers happy. I do not understand why that is such a difficult concept

_________________
"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Gah, too much to reply to! (btw the emoticons on this site are odd and rarely seem to represent the face I want...)



Of course it's all about the money. But money is made from keeping people happy. Obviously recent events have made some people unhappy which is going to have a negative impact on the cash.
I still think it's a minority that are actually [word deleted] off enough to lessen their spending or change game systems. We've all got an emotional attachment to our hobby and gamers are want to grumble when things change.
Some have every right to be mad- the aussies because they pay too much in comparison (btw I support the shipping embargo but not the ridiculous pricing in the southern hemisphere) and any LotR fan because GW pays very small lip-service to the range. (though of course we all know that will change once the Hobbit gravy-train appears...)



Price is a funny thing and something that means different things to different people. People pay for something if they think it's worth the money. This is true with every consumer product and not just GW.
Compared to what characters cost in Finecast and in metal, £8 for a plastic character is sweet. As soon as GW make some of these new plastic characters for an army I collect I'll be buying plenty.
In comparison to the number of models you get in a regular unit box of course it's dispraportionate. Plastic characters at £5 would be reasonable to me. But I understand that plastic moulds are expensive and due to volume of sales, these character models probably aren't too profit heavy.



Again, it's an individual thing. I currently own 8 armies across the 3 main games and I'm contemplating another 2 armies in the near future maybe. All of the models are current and in many places I've replaced older models with the newer as they came out (GK for example) and sold off the old models.
I really don't have a huge income and have very little disposable cash each month. Warhammer is still an affordable hobby to me as I choose what I want sensibly and don't have any other hobbies.
There are models available for some of my armies that I would never buy due to the cost- Landraiders are too expensive and not worth the cost in my eyes, so I'll never by one.



Love you too dude



I guess this is situational. I'm in the UK- GW opened up like 10 stores here last year and I currently live within a short traveling distance of about 10 stores.



I think this can vary. Of course as soon as a new customer is offered choice there is a greater likelyhood that they may go for a different system. But there are still many advantages to a starter that GW has over rival companies.

If we take PP and Warmachine as an example. To get the equivalent number of models/rules etc to start up in Warmachine it costs more than any of the GW starter sets (PP have just released WM starter set for £70 with 17 models and a small rulebook-good move!).
A new GW collector has a huge amount of support in terms of GW stores. They offer beginner classes, painting lessons, places to play and hep with anything warhammer related that someone new might need. PP can't offer this because they sell through independants. The majority of independants I've ever visited are small, dark little holes with limited ranges and a grumpy owner who offers very little in the way of support to new hobbyists. Of course there are some great independants, but from my experience they are in the minority. PP of course have their Pressgangers now which helps to address this, but it's not quite the same level of support.

Based on those two things which do you think appeals to a parent more? Would they rather spend more cash for less product and have hardly anywhere to use it and probably see it all ruined by the over-enthusiastic kid; or would they rather get more for their cash and have supportive shop staff who will bend over backwards so that little Jonny gets the most out of his new toys?

Of course being in the Uk we do have this luxury of lots of GW stores- I'm aware the situation is different around the world.




Aww, cute puppy!



It's not so much leaping to GW's defence as offering a differnt point of view or possible explanations. People are allowed to bash them so those of us who love warhammer and the GW hobby should be able to support GW no?

Finecast evokes a lot of mixed up feelings for me...
The messed up finecost logo is funny and is representative of a lot of the Devlan Mud that appeared in the first week of the finecast release. GW obviously dropped the ball and either rushed the release or just didn't apply enough QC before sending everything to the stores. That doesn't annoy me so much- I can wait and exchange a few kits to get a good one, I'm patient enough. What really [word deleted] me off is the lack of apology. It wouldn't have been hard to just say "sorry, there are some issues with Finecast, we'll sort it out for you all asap".

In regards to the cost, I think some of it is justified... The finecast hitting the shelves now is pretty much spot on- GW have sorted out QC and the stuff I bought this weekend was perfect.
So, finecast is easier to work with, lighter, has crisper detail and is more resilient. It's a better quality product.
Higher quality = higher cost. This is true with virtually every consumer product out there. When Apple release the next Iphone/pad etc it will be more expensive than the current one. It will (hopefully) be better but the costs to the company are likely to be smaller because a lot of the infrastructure for producing them is already there. So cheaper to produce, higher quality and more money.

People fixate on the cost of resin being cheaper (is it really, do we know what exactly GW are putting in the models?) but what about the costs to make brand new moulds and set up brand new equipment? It's got to have been a huge outlay.

Still, I'm never paying £20 for Gandalf in finecast...

I think the smaller model companies can afford to offer more currently. As they grow and change as a business they will adopt more GW type practices- this is the way of the capatilist world!



No. I have a FW and a finecast models in my hands right now. They're different.



Dezartfox doesn't do himself any favours discussing things while being a GW employee. He's also likely to get himself in truble for expressing views which may or may not be held by GW...

Found this blog post of a different view on GW. http://dspaintingblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-is-wrong-with-games-workshop.html

Thoughts?

_________________
Compulsorily acquired? You know what this means don't you, they're acquiring it compulsorily. - Darryl Kerrigan

Nice to see that you have replied Lorizael, with the usual amount of sweetness that comes with it
I'll let you have the last word in that discussion
And don't worry about Dezartfox, I'm sure the 'Powers that Be' must find out his alter ego first. Btw I may have heard that his account was hacked this past week or so...

Now onto aD???'s link:

Really I consider myself a collector/painter first. I don't feel in anyway that GW is targeting me. If they are, then their crosshairs must be set on my right side pocket where I keep my wallet. I did however have made purchases just for the game, like my WHFB army, and getting extra models I didn't really need just to make a Wotr army.

I find this statement contradicting. He is disagreeing with people that say 'the games are just to drive sales'; while at the sametime stating that the GW rulebook is just another advertising tool. So basically he's onboard with the people who believe that the games are just to drive sales of the miniatures, so the author must think of himself as giving GW too much credit or he's too simplistic in his views.

I never believed that the games pressured consumers to buy more and more miniatures until I fully read and understood WOTR, and then BATTLEHOSTS. I do find this game and more so its expansion mainly driven to just sell most of their miniatures as possible. Battlehosts is like a catalogue where if you want the rules to function, you must purchase the specific models on the list. Also when it comes to making a formation of metal models, an odd number blister suggests that a player should purchase up to 8 blisters to get an even 3 companies in a formation. And the official rules make no leeway to have a number below 8 in a company when deploying. That's why GW has done some little good now releasing finecast troops in an even number of 4, so you won't get left with odd figures out.

Overall I found the author said some stuff that is true, although I think he's upset that he built an army up for an edition he didn't get into in time and then a newer edition which no one wants to play. For a person that claims to be a collector, he believes that the game is what makes GW. Well, what is GW's identity really? Are they a gaming company, or a hobby company? I say both. They use the excuse that they're a specialised hobby to drive prices up, because after all hobbies are expensive and really it is a hobby. Figures are not supplied painted and assembled. The game however does dictate how many models you need to play in a small or large game and what you can field to have it balanced. So the game does drive sales of the miniatures. He's right that a collector would just stop at the odd few, that's why I like SBG.

_________________
My Lotr backlog: 305/952[][][][][][][][][][]32% completed
Painting Lineup: Mumakil x2, Rohan Heroes x8, Haradrim, SKoDA

Currently there is not a GW store with in 6 hours drive. They plain to open one some time soon. However, it will be about a hour away. It will have less of gaming space than every one else and only GW products. I have met the manager on line and he has joined our group. He will have a hard row to hoe keeping the store open. His direct competition has 15 times the gaming space and sells all kinds of games and cards plus food. The GW store is so small it won't be able to have in stock as many GW products as it's non GW completion. Of course,GW could cut the competition off like they have done before. Then the competition will sell model cars or comics and GW will close again after they make a lot of people unhappy. The end result will be they loose way more sales than they will gain. The USA is not the UK. GW's business model will not work here because it is not the only game in town. To little Parking is enough to close a business here. GW doesn't understand it needs to be part of the business model.I am afraid the GW manager is going to spend most of his time trying to explain why he does not buy used video games.

_________________
"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Lorizael, the material for Forge World is the same colour, texture, density, sands the same, smells the same, cuts the same as Fine Cast, even primes up the same!

It what way do you think it is different?

_________________
Harfoots-The first of the Hobbit people to cross over the Misty Mountains and enter Eriador.

It's different in that it is a different texture, is softer, cuts easier and isn't brittle. If I drop FW I cringe as I know it's likely to shatter into many pieces. With finecast it's ok as I know it's much more likely to bounce.

Well all the recent Forge World models are nor like you describe, have you bought anything recently?

All the new release have the same resin

_________________
Harfoots-The first of the Hobbit people to cross over the Misty Mountains and enter Eriador.

Then quite possibly FW have changed their resin to match finecast... I shall give them a call and ask!
Last thing I bought from FW was in February and that was the same resin as ever and definitely nothing like finecast.

i think the funny thing is that when bgime was £4 i used to complain and you got models with it now the prices on the GW website is extortionate and just too expensive which is one of the main reasons why i have bought significantly less warhammer recently

_________________
Anduril, Flame of the West forged from the shards of Narsil,
Sauron will not have forgotten the sword of Elendil

That's very true

its a shame as i enjoy warhammer but i do not have enormous amounts of money to buy lots of it

_________________
Anduril, Flame of the West forged from the shards of Narsil,
Sauron will not have forgotten the sword of Elendil

It is mearly a colour change in my opinion. You can add colour to your resin. I used to own alot of blue resin that was the same texture as forgeworld resin but it was blue....

I'd want to see both resin types together and cut them with a blade, bend them after heating etc before i'd be confident enough to say they are the same

You should get out more



There are 3 independent stores in my area this is the small one. It is my favorite because it is close. I also like the owner and his family. You can see the in Store 175,000 pt 40 K game. There are 3 spaces for role playing and 4 4X12 and 6 4X6 tables as well. There are card tables and 10 more 4X6 available for events. He is well stocked and informed and supports the major games.There is more than enough room for 30 or more people to play at once.

It has been my experience that GW stores are the holes in the wall with limited stock and space. They are company stores so the owners are represented by grossly, misinformed post-pubescence minimum wage employees.

I have met the new GW store manager on line. He seems like a nice guy but he will be a one man show with 2 4X6 tables and limited stock. He is an adult and seems well informed. This will be a new GW experience for me. I wish him luck.

_________________
"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

Agreed! GW has no presence within 100 miles (actually I think it's about 480 miles). And when I did visit that one store a few years ago I wasn’t any more impressed with its stock than what I’ve seen at a few local stores within an hour of us. There was some nice gaming tables in the back of the store but again not so dramatically special that it knocked my socks off. I’ve also heard of the draconian restrictions most GW stores have on the use of non-GW models in their games but since there’s no chance I’ll be playing at this store then I didn’t bother confirming. What was obvious though was that LotR was only a casual interest for the store and most of their space and attention seemed devoted to WH, followed by 40K. And this was during the hay-day of SBG when they were still coming out with new supplements and models on a regular basis and a good amount of support was available for tournaments and events.

In my experience LGSs are very nice and I’ve been to some that are far better than what I saw at that GW store. Our local one is relatively limited in floor space being in an older section of town (small store foot prints) but they have a very nice large table right at the front windows by the front door (giving up a fair amount of potential stock space in favor of player support). They also have a second smaller table in the same area that is used by smaller games, RPGs, card games or people sitting down to paint. Each of those tables, are in prime real estate for stock items but the store instead gives it to the players. And there are several large tables and terrain storage space in the basement (“dungeon”) and yeah, it’s a basement so it’s got concrete floor, unfinished wall/ceiling, etc. But it’s well lit and packed every Friday, Saturday and Sunday with players from several game systems.

As for the owner(s), they have come in early for us and have stayed open a few hours late for games to finish on many occasions. They themselves are gamers and military historian buffs, always ready to chat, share a joke, cut a little bargain when you’re spending a fair amount, etc. and treat us as equally if we run into them outside the store. Our game club is independent of the store (covering players from several nearby stores in fact) but is still well supported by the store as well. I would be interested to hear of a GW store supporting a club that supports other local competitive stores to their own and promotes multiple company’s game systems.

LGSs were what I grew up with and have enjoyed spending time at for almost 30 years of gaming so far. Finding the right one or two nearby is gold for a hobbyist, but maybe I’ve just been lucky. I’ve never found one that treated it’s players and customers with anything less than the respect they deserve (after all, the store is there for the players, not the other way around) and most really like to have players PLAYING and have those be visible to the public to get attention. When you have to move away, or such a place does close (the profit margins on these places must be razor thin especially in today’s economy) it’s a very sad event and you can only hope to be as lucky next time. But as for a company-sponsored store (like GW’s) I just don’t see the draw unless you have only one game interest (I’ve never been a monogamist in my game interests) and it’s the game that company puts most of their resources in (and LotR is NOT that game for GW from what I’ve seen).

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Some of them don't want you to play with old GW models. The explanation to me was the employee did not want to answer questions like "why can't I get them?"
It was not a bother for me. The store was too small, too far away and did not have any thing I could not get some where with less attitude.

_________________
"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

As I said "majority that I've visited". I don't doubt there are great independants out there who do great things for the hobby. There are two close to me with loads of gaming space- very nice places to be. At the same time there are 20+ independants in the area that I would never go to to get my model fix.

I think there's a great deal of difference between the UK and USA. From experience and from reading what other hobbyists say on forums, it seems as if GWs here are good places to go to get plastic soldiers, play games, get help etc whilst independants are a bit lame; and across the pond that seems reversed. Which seems a shame- you'd hope that all would be equal.

I've been doing GW stuff for 20 odd years now and I've always been happy going into GW stores. I've had my run ins with managers and overzealous staff, but those staff never seem to last long
Generally I have fun and still enjoy the hobby as much as I always have. Just wish I had more time for it!

Truer words have not been typed.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I have been at this for quite awhile as well.There have been lots of changes in the industry. Most of them good. Games Work Shop has been a constant disappointment for me.I am glad your experience is positive.
Something from customer service class to keep in mind, A positive experience a customer will remember forever. A customer will tell a hundred people about a negative experience.Every time A GW employee or "supporter" blows off a complaint they multiply the problem by a hundred.

_________________
"the same as a duck you must be made of wood"

I had the 'pleasure' of visiting a GW while on holiday and managed to get a look at some finecast models. I must say they are very impressive and I looked at about 20 of them still in the blister and i didn't find ANY major faults. Only one of them had a large mouldline.

I asked the staff about what he knew about the problems and he said that they were lots of problems at the beggining but now with the second wave of finecast, it is becoming easier to controll it and they are finding far less mistakes than the first wave.

Just thought i'd spread some good news